Family Tree

[lizspean]

I am researching a branch of my family tree, this is on the Black side, and have come across a drowning in 1919. All I have are the following details:- Name: Helen or Ellen Black, 41, Schoolteacher, Dead body found in Auchylochy Loch on 16 March 1919.
I cannot find any newspaper reports of this. Can anyone give me further information.

[Iain]

Hi Liz ! Welcome to The Kintyre Forum.

Half of my Campbeltown family are Blacks and going back to my 2xGr, he had a couple of generations who were from Rathlin Island; but as yet, there’s no Joseph Black.

On the other hand, Auchylochy has confirmed that the following is surely your family. Also, if you PM me your e-mail address I can send you a photo of his wife.
For the others who might be able to help; this is what Liz PM’d me:

"Joseph Black is one of my ancestors and I am trying to trace the family tree. Can you help with any information no matter how small. I believe there was some Greek connections, how true I don't know, but one Joseph Black b. 21.08.1809 in 1901 Census gives Ireland as "Where Born" .
Thank you
Liz."

-----------------------------------

James BLACK
Birth 1776 in Scotland
Mary ADAM
Birth 28 Jan 1777 in Low Church, Paisley, Renfrewshire
Children:
Mary BLACK 1797 –
Jean BLACK 1798 –
David BLACK 1802 –
James BLACK 1805 – 1807
James BLACK 1807 –
Joseph BLACK 1809 –
Ann Galt BLACK 1811 –
Martha BLACK 1817 –

Joseph BLACK
Birth 21 Jul 1809 in High Church, Paisley
Margaret FLEMING
Birth 25 Jul 1806 in Campsie, Stirling
Death 18 Feb 1864 in Poorhouse, Paisley
Marriage 11 June 1829.
Children:
Joseph BLACK 1832 – 1880
Grace BLACK 1836 – 1875

Joseph BLACK
Birth 1832 in PAISLEY, RENFREWSHIRE
Death 21 May 1880 in BACK STREET, CAMPBELTOWN, ARGYLL
Mary CURRIE
Birth 06 Sep 1830 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Death 19 Mar 1882 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Marriage 23 May 1852
Children:
Joseph BLACK 1852 – 1943
Daniel BLACK 1854 – 1855
Mary BLACK 1856 – 1879
Mary Black 1857 –
James BLACK 1858 – 1892
Elizabeth BLACK 1860 – 1935
Margaret BLACK 1863 – 1864
Alexander BLACK 1864 –
Daniel Currie BLACK 1868 –

Joseph BLACK
Birth 01 Dec 1852 in Londonderry, Nthn IRELAND
Death 25 Nov 1943 in 21 SADDELL STREET, CAMPBELTOWN
Agnes MUNRO
Birth 19 Jan 1855 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Death 07 Feb 1929 in 21 SADDELL STREET, CAMPBELTOWN
Marriage 6 August 1874
Children:
Mary Currie BLACK 1875 – 1959
Alexander Munro BLACK 1875 – 1877
Helen Munro BLACK 1877 – 1919
Joseph BLACK 1879 – 1960
Elizabeth BLACK 1881 – 1967
Agnes BLACK 1883 – 1970
Margaret BLACK 1885 – 1977
Euphemia Munro BLACK 1887 – 1943
Pheobe Black 1888 –
Martha BLACK 1891 – 1978
Charles Munro BLACK

I’ll see what I can find in the newspapers about the drowning.

..., Iain.

[Shona]

Hi Liz,

Have you viewed the image on Scotland's People? There is a record for the death of Helen Munro Black's in Campbeltown in 1919. She was 41.

My 3x great-gran was found dead on a hill on High Glenramskill farm. There is quite a lot of detail about the circumstances of her death on the RCE - Register of Corrected Entries. You need to look for the initials RCE written on the register entry.

Another 3x great-gran's record on Scotland's People looked quite normal - the cause of death was recorded as heart disease. However, the RCE notes that the cause of death was 'collapse produced by cold, deceased having apparently fainted and fallen in the burn and unable to extricate herself'.

[Shona]

Helen Munro Black's parents were Joseph Black and Agnes Munro. Joseph and Agnes married in 1874 in Campbeltown.

1881 census - John Street, Campbeltown

Joseph Black, head, 28, master baker empl 2 men, b Ireland
Agnes Black, wife, 26, b C/T
Mary C Black, dau, 5, b C/T
Helen M Black, dau, 3, b C/T
Joseph Black, son, 1, b C/T
Grace Copland, 19, domestic servant

1891 census - Black's Land, Saddle Street, Campbeltown

Joseph Black, head, 38, baker, b Ireland
Agnes Black, wife, 36, b C/T
Mary C Black, dau, 15, dressmaker's apprentice, b C/T
Helen Black, dau, 13, scholar, b C/T
Joseph Black, son, 11, scholar, b C/T
Elizabeth Black, son, 9, scholar, b C/T
Agnes Black, dau. 7, scholar, b C/T
Phoebe Black, dau, 3, b C/T

[Shona]

Some more census info, which support the info that Iain found:

1871 Back Street, Campbeltown

Joseph Black, head, 39, pastry baker, b Paisley
Mary Black, wife, 39, b C/T
Joseph Black, son, 18, pastry baker, b Londonderry
Mary Black, dau, 14, scholar, b C/T
James Black, son, 12, scholar, b C/T
Elizabeth Black, dau, 7, scholar, b C/T
Alexander Black, son, 5, scholar, b C/T
Margaret Black, dau, 3, b C/T
Daniel Black, son, 2, b C/T
Martha Campbell Black, 4 mo, b C/T

1861 McNaughton's Land, Campbeltown

Joseph Black, head, 30, baker, b Paisley
Mary Black, wife, 30, b C/T
Joseph Black, son, 8, b Londonderry
Mary Black, dau, 5, b C/T
James Black, son, 3, b C/T
Elizabeth Black, dau, 1, b C/T

Joseph Black married Mary Currie on 23 May 1852 in Barony, Glasgow. Their first child, Joseph, was born in Londonderry c 1853. Mary was born in Campbeltown on 10 March 1856. So the family were in Londonderry (we don't know if it was the town or the county) for quite a short period of time. Unfortunately, Joseph was born in Londonderry before statutory registration.

1851 120 South Albion Street, Glasgow

Joseph Black, visitor, 21, confectioner, b Paisley

[Shona]

From Angus Martin's Book 'Kintyre - The Hidden Past'.

Appendix 1

Irish Immigrant Fishing Families in Campbeltown

BLACK
The emergence of the Blacks in the fishing community may be traced to Daniel, born in Ballycastle, c1833 (some say Rathlin Island). His parents were Archibald, labourer, born c1787 (son of John Black, crofter, and Mary McCurdie) and Jane McKinlay, born c1798, both on Rathlin. All three names were recorded on the island in 1669 - Brian and Allex McCurdy in Kinramer, Pat Black in Ballygill, Malcum and Arc Black in Kilpatrcik. There were said to be three branches of Blacks on Rathlin - one Scottish and two of native Irish descent. Daniel Black had two known brothers - Duncan who went to Glasgow as a carpenter and James, born c1837 in Ballycastle, who became a seaman and who married Ann Sharp in Campbeltown. He drowned c1866. The Blacks settled in Campbeltown c1838. Daniel's first wife was Margaret Morrison, who died 29 April 1874 in Campbeltown, aged 39. Her parents were John Morrison, labourer, born rathlin, and Mary McCurdie, born Campbeltown. The Morrisons and Blacks were neighbours in Wide Close * in 1851. His second wife was Sarah Newlands, widow of Michael Durnan. She died on 8 February 1898 in Kirk Close, Daniel Blacks first skiff, of which there is a record, was the Maggie in 1869. She was owned by his father. Daniel Black's first marriage produced five fishermen sons - Archibald (8 October 1855), Duncan (28 July 1858), Daniel (6 October 1860), John (28 April 1864) and James (born 27 January 1868

* Wide Close was considered the worst slum in Campbeltown.

[Shona]

Angus Martin says that the Black family of Irish-born fishermen can be traced to Daniel Black (son of Archibald) born in Ballycastle c1833. Here are the families mentioned:

1841

Wide Close, Campbeltown

Archibald Black, 45, labourer, b Ireland
Jean Black, 35, b Ireland
Daniel Black, 6, b Ireland
James Black, 4, b Ireland
Janet Black, 2, b Ireland

Lochend Street, Campbeltown

James Black, 35, ag lab, b Ireland
Mary Black, 40, b Ireland
Mary Black, 15, b Ireland
Margaret Black, 12, b Ireland
Ann Black, 9, b Argyll
Alexander Black, 2, b Argyll

From this is seems as if James Black moved to Campbeltown between 1829-1832. Archibald moved to Campbeltown between 1839 and 1849.

1851

Wide Close, Campbeltown

Archibald Black, head, 54, labourer, b Rathlin
Jane Black, wife, 47, b Rathlin
Daniel Black, son, 15, fisher, b Ballycastle
James Black, son, 15, scholar, b Ballycastle
Janet Black, dau, 12, b Campbeltown

High Street
James Black, head, 45, ag lab, b Ireland
Mary Black, wife, 51, b Ireland
Mary Black, dau, 19, b Ireland
Anne Black, dau, 16, b Campbeltown
Alexander Black, 12, b Campbeltown

Both Rathlin and Ballycastle are in Co Antrim.

The Joseph Black born in Paisley named two of his sons, Daniel - Daniel Black, born 25 June 1854 (baptised 26 September 1854, who died in infancy, and Daniel Currie Black, b 1868. This suggests a connection.

[Iain]

Shona..., you are a one ! Lol !
Do you by any chance have enough space for a “tinker’s tent” in your back garden. If so, I’d like to spend a few months with you discussing your credentials and contacts ? Lol !
If so, I’ll promise to take my wellies and help you search for those illicit whisky barrels and dried-up burns.
Angus Martin's Book 'Kintyre - The Hidden Past'..., is this a digital download ? Lots of info I didn’t have on that ! Thanks !

Daniel (Dane) Black is my 2xGr, born in 1835 in Ballycastle, Rathlin Island, (Rachrainn) Antrim, Ireland.
And his great grandmother was Mary McCurdie...
Despite her life of apparent poverty, she provides a Black lineage to the Stewarts and the McDonalds.

MARY McCURDIE
Your 4th great grandmother
Birth 1760 in Raithlin Island, Ireland.
Death 1 Apr 1840 - Age: 80
(Middle Bally Ghaol, Raithlin Island, Ireland.
Headstone..., erected by "Dunkin" Black in memory of his father John, late of Middle bally ghaol who departed this life 20th Jan 1837 aged 87 yrs. Also his mother Mary, 1st April 1840 aged 80 yrs.)
Source..., Rathlin Island records

---------------------------------------

JOHN BLACK
Your 4th great grandfather
Birth Abt 1750 in Raithlin Island, Antrim, Ireland.
Death 20 January 1837 in Ballygill Middle (Bally Ghaol) Raithlin Island, Ireland.
MARY McCURDIE
Your 4th great grandmother
Birth 1760 in Raithlin Island, Ireland.
Death 1 April 1840 in Middle Bally Ghaol, Raithlin Island, Ireland
Marriage 1782 - Age: 32 Castle Ballygill, Rathlin Island, Ireland.
Children :
Duncan Black 1790 – 1840
ARCHIBALD BLACK 1791 – 1877

ARCHIBALD BLACK
Your 3rd great grandfather
Birth Abt 1791 in Island of Rathlin, Ireland.
Death 12 April 1877 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
JANE (Jean) McKINLAY
Your 3rd great grandmother
Birth abt 1798 in Rathlin Island, (Rachrainn) Antrim, Ireland
Death 23 July 1886 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Children:
Daul Black 1833 –
Duncan (Dunkin) Black 1834 –
Alexander Black 1835 –
DANIEL (Dane) BLACK 1835 – 1898
Paul Black 1835 –
James Black 1837 – 1860
Janet Black 1839 –
John Black 1840 –
Daniel Black

DANIEL (Dane) BLACK
Your 2nd great grandfather
Birth 1835 in Ballycastle, Rathlin Island, (Rachrainn) Antrim, Ireland
Death 28 December 1898 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
MARGARET MORRISON
Your 2nd great grandmother
Birth 1835 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Death 29 April 1874 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Married 1854.
Children:
Archibald Black 1855 – 1891
Mary Black 1855 –
Duncan Black 1858 –
DANIEL BLACK 1860 – 1939 (Great Grandfather; fisherman)
Janet Black 1862 –
John Black 1864 –
Margaret Black 1866 –
James Black 1868 –
Agnes Black 1870 – 1923
Robert Black 1872 –

DANIEL BLACK
Your great grandfather
Birth 6 October1860 in Main Street, Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Death 30 January 1939 in 53 Longrow, Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
JANET McMILLAN
Your great grandmother
Birth 1862 in Dalmellington, Ayrshire
Marriage 1881 at Shore Street.
Children:
Mary Black 1882 –
Daniel Black 1888 –
Isabella Black 1891 –
James Black 1893 –
John Black 1895 –
Annie Black 1897 –
Archibald Black 1898 –
MALCOLM BLACK 1900 – 1944 (Granddad... died following a WW2 mine at sea)
Duncan Black 1905 –
Agnes BLACK 1906 – 1991
Nancy Black 1907 –

MALCOLM BLACK
Your maternal grandfather
Birth 27 March 1900 in 70 Burnside Street, Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Death 24 June 1944 in 53 Longrow Street, Campbeltown.
He was a ship’s carpenter on the Dalriada. I never met him as he died from injuries following a mine explosion in the Thames Estuary. The boat went down.
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?31158
http://fr.scribd.com/doc/1461313/Kintyr ... -1939-1945
MARY Martin McCuaig Rankin MacARTHUR
Your maternal grandmother (my hero)
Birth 12 January 1895 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Death 09 June 1964 in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
Married 22 February 1924
Children:
Netty Black
Daniel (Dan) Black 1924 –
Robina (Bina) MacArthur Black 1926 - 1983 (my Mother)
Mary (May) Black 1931 – 1977

------------------------------------
All from the history books :

Margaret Stewart
Your 8th great grandmother
And; 1xGr grand daughter of James Ardmaleish Stewart, <Sir> birth 1531 in Isle of Bute, Firth of Clyde, Scotland
Birth 1644 in Ballintoy, County Antrim, N. Ireland.
Death 1747 in Cavan Parish, Antrim, N.I.
Petheric (Patrick) McCurdy Cairn McKirdy
Your 8th great grandfather
Birth 1640 in The Isle of Bute, Firth of Clyde, Scotland.
Death 1700 in Ballintoy, County Antrim, N. Ireland.
Children :
James McCurdy 1668 – 1691
David McCurdy Cairn McKirdy 1670 – 1747
Petheric McCurdy McKirdy 1670 –
William McCurdy 1673 –
John McCurdy 1675 – 1698
DANIEL McCURDY 1677 – 1747
Daniel McCurdy

Daniel McCurdy
Your 7th great grandfather
Birth 1677 in Ballintoy, County Antrim, N. Ireland.
Death 1747 in Antrim, Northern Ireland
Mary Aloysia Laughlin
Your 7th great grandmother
Birth 1702 in Antrim, Antrim, Northern Ireland
Children :
Lucretia McCurdy
ARCHIBALD McCurdy 1722 – 1810
John McCurdy 1724 –
Neil McCurdy 1728 –
Daniel McCurdy

Archibald McCurdy
Your 6th great grandfather
Birth 1722
Death 1810
Mary Morrison
Your 6th great grandmother
Birth 1724 in Antrim, Antrim, Northern Ireland
Marriage 1746
Children :
JOHN McCURDY 1747 – 1810
Abram McCurdy 1750 – 1790
Archibald McCurdy 1750 – 1805
Thomas McCurdy 1750 – 1821
Hugh McCurdy 1752 – 1832
Daniel McCurdy

John McCurdy
Your 5th great grandfather
Birth Abt 1747
Death 1810
Margaret Black
Your 5th great grandmother
Birth before 1745 in Rathlin Island, Ireland.
Death 1783 in Pennsylvania, USA
Children :
John G McCurdy McCurdy (McCurdie) – 1881
Margaret McCurdy – 1878
MARY McCURDIE 1760 – 1840
Charles McCurdy 1776 – 1876
Dennis "Daniel" McCurdy

MARY McCURDIE
Your 4th great grandmother
Birth 1760 in Raithlin Island, Ireland.
Death 1 April 1840 in Middle Bally Ghaol, Raithlin Island, Ireland.
JOHN BLACK
Your 4th great grandfather
Birth Abt 1750 in Raithlin Island, Antrim, Ireland.
Death 20 January 1837 in Ballygill Middle (Bally Ghaol) Raithlin Island, Ireland.
Marriage 1872
Children :
Duncan Black 1790 – 1840
ARCHIBALD BLACK


Note : My Uncle Dan Black is the only person alive today who could eventually give an insight into the life and times of this family. Unfortunately..., I’m never in Scotland !

As such, you’ll have to forgive me for my “welly” proposition !

[JOEMAC]

Hi Ian & Shona,
I have been following the discussion on the Black family from the Campbeltown area.
My 3rd.cousin once removed, Alexander Blue, married Margaret Morrison Black [born 1889 Corbett`s Close, Campbeltown] on 29 Dec.1911 at Kirk Close, Longrow, Campbeltown.Her parents were Archibald Black & Catherine McLean.
My 4th.cousin, Daniel Morrison, married Catherine Lang Black [born 1915 3,Glebe Street, Campbeltown] on 4 Oct. 1939 at the Royal Hotel, Campbeltown.Her parents were Daniel Black & Agnes McKenzie.
Is there any connection to your Black family.
Hope to hear from you.
Joe McMillan,
South Australia [formerly of Dumbarton]

[Shona]

Hello, Joe. Yes, your Blacks are connected.

1891 census - Corbett's Lane, Campbeltown

Archibald Black, head, 38, fisherman, b C/T
Catherine Black, wife, 35, b C/T
Daniel Black, son, 11, b C/T
Catherine Black, dau, 8, b C/T
Maggie M Black, dau, 3, b C/T

Archibald is the son of Daniel Black and his first wife Margaret Morrison - both are mentioned in the extract about the Black family taken from Angus Martin's book.

[JOEMAC]

Hi Shona,
Thank`s for the info on my Black`s.
I have a note beside Margaret in my database to the effect that she had 2 children, father unknown, they were Dugald Matheson Black [or Blue]b. 1926 & Donald Sinclair Black [or Blue]b.1929.Alexander Blue died in 1923 so he was not the father so I am not sure if the children bore a Black or Blue surname.
Do you have any information on these children.
Alexander & Margaret had the following children
Alexander Blue b.1912 C/town
Archibald Black Blue b.1914 C/town
Thomas Blue b.1917 C/town
Catherine McLachlan McLean Blue b.1920 C/town D. 1920 C/town
Duncan McInnes Blue b. 1921 C/town
If you have any data on any of these kids I would really appreciate it if you would share it with me.
Hope to hear from you.
Joe McMillan

[Shona]

It will be a struggle to get more info about more recent births from sources south as Scotland's People.

This is what SP say:

Statutory Births Index
The statutory births index contains entries from the indexes to the civil registers of births for all Scotland, from 1855 until 2009.

The index does not include:
- the full date of the event because only the year was captured when the indexes were compiled, although the full date is present on register entries themselves.
- the parents' names, but these are present on register entries themselves.

Images of Statutory Births
Images of statutory births from 1855 to 1910 are available to view on this site. A digital image is a scan of the microfiche copy of the original register page containing the entry in which you are interested. It therefore contains the same information you would normally see when looking at the actual record. Images are Crown copyright; however, they are not official copies. If you wish to have a certified, legally admissible copy of the specific register entry in which you are interested, you will need to order an extract.

The middle names of Mathieson and Sinclair may provide a clue - could this be the fathers' names?

A subsequent marriage or death cert may give the name of the father in each case.

[Shona]

Found a few bits and pieces.

Alexander Blue joined the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in 1908 - his occupation on enlistment was distillery workman. He served in the First World War and was awarded the 1914 Star, Victory and British medals. When he enlisted, he named his father - Alexander Blue, Chishan - his next of kin. This was later crossed out and Mrs A Blue, 28 Shore Street, added. Alexander married on 29 Dec 1911. In his records (which can be viewed on Ancestry, if you have a sub), there is a will in which he says that in the event of his death, he leaves everything to his wife, Margaret Blue, 28 Shore Street. He was discharged in 1916. He died, age 36, in 1923.

Duncan McInnes Blue was born on 10 November 1921 at Chishan, Campbeltown. He died in 1995 at Washington, Co Durham.

[Shona]

Alexander Blue, b 1912.

Alexander died on 6 November, aged 28, at the cottage hospital in Campbeltown from war injuries - multiple leg injuries from bomb fragments. Usual address - 13 Kirk Street. Father named as Alexander Blue, distillery maltman, deceased. Mother named as Margaret Black. Alexander was married to Agnes McFadyen Sinclair. The informant was Agnes's brother, John Sinclair, 14 Burnside Street.

[JOEMAC]

Hi again Shona,
Thank you so much for the information on my relatives.The info I have is that Alexander was born on 17 April 1912 at 28,Shore Street, Campbeltown and he married Agnes McFadyen Sinclair on 9 September 1938 at The Manse, Kirk Street, Campbeltown. They had one child as far as I know, Alexander Blue.
Can you add anything to this.
Cheers,
Joe.