Joan of Arc

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Joan of Arc

Postby democat101 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:06 pm

Was Joan of Arc trained in Kintyre?
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby WC1 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:21 am

What a strange question! What makes you ask it?
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby the dusky maid » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:42 pm

joan of arc was rumoured to have trained in combat strategy at saddell abbey, the abbey at that time was run by french cistercian monks.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby Iain » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:08 am

Know nothing much about her but she did have Scotsmen to guard her !
http://www.maidofheaven.com/joanofarc_scots_guards.asp
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby petewick » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:51 pm

The abbey was formed by Cistercian Monks from Mellifont Abbey in Ireland.......
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby Shona » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:40 pm

Saddell was established by Irish monks. Have never seen any reference to the French being involved. However, the Scots were on the side of the French in the 100 years war, and at the time that Joan was commanding troops, there were a significant number of Scottish soldiers in France.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby petewick » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:14 pm

The style of the uniforms on the knights on the stone slabs at the abbey
is definitely European, possibly Norman.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby Shona » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:01 am

The style of armour depicted on the grave slabs at Saddell are typically Scottish - not Norman. The inscription on one says that the grave commemorates Neil McNair and was commissioned by his son, Donald. That sounds v Scottish to me! In fact, the style of armour seen in Saddell can be seen all over west Argyll - Killean, Isaly, Oronsay, Kilmartin, Iona.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby petewick » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:14 pm

The helmets they are wearing would suggest Norman, as mentioned many Scots
merceneries in France and even ventured to the middle east in the Crusades.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby Iain » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:43 pm

Too heavy for me..., lol ! Nonetheless, congratulations both of you ! :) :wink:
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby democat101 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:53 am

Legend states that she came to Scotland to be trained in the art of Warfare by a preceptory in a remote stretch of Argyll. After further research one of the most prominent candidates for this fabled location is the Monks Preceptory at Saddell on the tip of Mull of Kintyre the monks where pre-eminent in there devisal and designs in combat strategy, historical links to the French fighting monks of the Knight Templers whom are said to have fled to Kintyre Argyll on the West coast and Isle of May on the East coast of Scotland in there ships after Black Friday October 13, 1307.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby Shona » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:45 pm

*draws deep breath*

This is a story with no supporting evidence. JdA's life has been studied for centuries and there are no accounts of her coming to Scotland.

Yes, there were Scottish soldiers fighting on her side against the English. Scottish writer, Andrew Lang, who wrote an autobiography of JdF, was interested in the role of these Scots, so he decided to write a FICTIONAL account of the influence of a Scottish monk in her life. But it's a story!

The tales of fleeing Knight Templar hiding out in Kintyre is dismissed as nonsense by experts.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby democat101 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:20 pm

As is the case with much history, there is no 'direct evidence'. This post was started because JdA is an area of history I find fascinating, and wanted to get responses and opinions. So far that is exactly what is happening, but even so, on the few responses there is contention! That is what happens when you try to research something that is vague and dark, and I am of the opinion that 'experts' are only people who have done an amount of research and then formed an opinion. Also, history is written from a particular perspective at the time, that of victors and that of losers, both accounts of the same events will vary, which is the true account? Hopefully the process of debate and research will continue and more 'evidence' will come to light so that better opinions are formed.
For example, below is an opinion from research..
The Knights Templar Scotland

In October 1307 the Knights Templar, the most powerful of the orders of chivalry founded during the Crusades, were proscribed by Philip IV of France and Pope Clement V. Philip may well have had his eyes on the riches accumulated by the Templars over the previous two centuries. Certainly he had difficulty in persuading other European monarchs to follow his example. It was only after a bull from the Pope himself that, for example, the English king Edward II began to arrest prominent members of the order. In spite of strenuous efforts on the part of Philip's officers, many French Templars, and their fleet of ships, were never captured. In Scotland and Ireland, which were nominally under Edward's rule, the Templars were not pursued for several years, and these were the years during which Bruce was rallying his forces in Carrick to regain the Scottish throne.

Where did the escaping Templars go? The English writers Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh have recently investigated the gravestones at the chapel of Kilmory in Knapdale and believe that these stones, undated but decorated with broadswords and figures of men in armour, are those of Templar knights.

In 1307-1309 the east coast of Scotland was blockaded by the English fleet, as was the Irish sea, and the sea north of Jura was patrolled by the ships of the pro-English MacDougalls, but Baigent and Leigh suggest that the Templar fleet could have sailed from France, around the west coast of Ireland, where they could have received support and supplies from Irish Templar establishments, to reach Kintyre.

In 1310 Edward protested that Bruce's forces were receiving 'provisions, horses, armour and other supplies' from Ireland, and on 24 June 1314 the English were decisively defeated at Bannockburn. Were the forces who turned the tide in that battle Templars, with two centuries' experience of war in the Holy Land behind them? An interesting consequence of this theory is that it provides support for the belief that the obscure origins of Freemasonry are to be found in Scotland, long before its emergence at the end of the 16th century. The Templars, as their name suggests, were dedicated to the protection of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, and they also built a number of castles. For this, a knowledge of the secrets of masonry was essential. Baigent and Leigh point to a surprising device on one of the gravestones at Kilmory, a mason's setsquare.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby kintyre 84 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:26 pm

According to a historian visiting Campbeltown recently, there are several Knights Templar graves at Kilkervan Cemetery near Machrihanish.
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Re: Joan of Arc

Postby Shona » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:03 pm

Momento mori carvings on gravestones are nothing to do with being a Freemason or Templar knight! There are some great examples from the 18th century. Common symbols are skull and crossbones and an hourglass which symbolise mortality. Other symbols represent life and life after death. Carvings indicating occupations occur, too. Donald McKinnon's stone in Killean is a good example as it shows a man ploughing. A ship may indicate a mariner or fisherman. Spades, hammers, set squares appear, too, but they don't indicate the grave of a Templar. In fact, some of the symbols appear on the graves of women.

The grave slabs depicting men in armour are those of Scottish knights not Templars. The giveaway is the appearance of claymores on the slabs.

I try to keep in mind that many of these 'theories' are put about by people with books to sell.
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