Some old regiment photos...

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Some old regiment photos...

Postby amron » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:07 pm

After a conversation in Tescos today I was asked to put on these photos..
I am unsure which regiment these are from I thought that they were the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders but not sure ....the bearskin and white plume is making me unsure...
My Great uncle John Durnan signed up in 1933 back row right ImageImage






In POW camp Stalag Germany
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this was his brother my Great Uncle Charlie
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and family friend
Donny Galbraith
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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby Lachlan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:57 am

Hi

Great photos.

The top photo is defintely the Argylls. I would date it to pre-WW2. The 2nd photo is Argylls too and again judging by the collar dogs on the service tunic, it's the 1930's or even early war. If there's a connection between those and the Stalag photo and also your Argyll connections, I'm tempted to think it's the 8th Argylls (TA). The top photo may show a "display" section of the 8th in full-dress, complete with feather bonnets, white hackles and "swinging six" sporran for some special parade or display. Full dress disappeared at the start of WW1and the post-war austerity caused by the huge cost of the war meant it wasn't re-introduced in its historic form of scarlet doublets. Khaki service dress was smartened up to make it suitable for parades, walking-out etc. However, some regimental and battalion stocks survived in QM stores and were sparingly issued in small numbers for special occasions. So the photo possibly captures such an occasion, maybe even honouring George VI's coronation.

The 2nd photo is possibly a MT section of the 8th Argylls, before or at the start of WW2. TA units got their 1938 Battledress issued later than the regulars and so many TA units went off to war in uniforms similar to WW1. When the 51st Highland Division went to France in February 1940, most wore service tunics and kilts, just as in WW1. They progressively got their battledress in the following weeks, just before the Germans attacked. The 8th Argylls were brigaded in 154 Bde, 51st HD, as were the Stirlingshire 7th Argylls. By the time the Germans attacked on 10th May, the 51st had already been seconded to the French 9th Corps, getting front-line acclimatisation in the Maginot Line. This rotation of individual British units to the Maginot Line for front-line experience under French attachment had been going on for some months. It was just the 51st's luck that they were in the line when the Germans launched their offensive which largely by-passed the Maginot Line but threatened to encircle it from behind. A retreat from the trap was required. When it happened, the 51st were ordered to remain under French control which basically lost them any chance of re-joining the retreating BEF. The 51st retreated and fought South West alongside the French until they took up defensive positions up the coast from Le Havre, at the coastal town of St Valery en Caux. The idea was to await evcuation by the Royal Navy, however, attempts proved impossible when the Germans closed the trap. Meanwhile 154 Bde had been sent ahead to Le Havre as part of the ad-hoc "Ark Force" to protect a possible evacuation area suitable for the RN, however, only part of 154 Bde reached Le Havre, the rest having been intercepted by Rommel's forces and captured after a hard battle. With St Valery hemmed in and the German tanks occupying the cliff-tops, evacuation by sea became impossible and the survivors, 51st and Frenchmen fought on until out of ammo. On 12 June, General Victor Fortune surrendered to Rommel.

Survivors of the 7th and 8th Argylls in Le Havre got away by all manner of ingenious methods. Those who reached England found their division gone and their battalions nearly gone too. However, as soon as practicable, the 51st's second-line support division, the 9th Highland Div (TA) was re-named the 51st Highland Div and the 10th and 11th Argylls renamed the 7th and 8th Argylls. Some of the Le Havre survivors joined the re-built 7th and 8th Argylls. Those 51st men captured in France went into the bag in Stalags in Poland, many in a Stalag at Thorn, Poland. RSM Jimmy Fulton, 2nd Seaforths, became the "British Man of Confidence" at the camp. Later, whilst still based in the UK, the 8th Argylls was withdrawn from the 51st Division and put into the newly-forming 78th Division, a formation being put together for British 1st Army for Operation Torch, the forthcoming Anglo-American invasion of Vichy North Africa.

The new 51st, led by Gen Douglas Wimberley, was the division which spearheaded the battle of El Alamein (Operation Lightfoot) on 23 October 1942 and became Monty's veteran assault division in North Africa, Sicily and North-West Europe. A favourite of Monty, the division fell short of his expectations in the bocage-fighting in Normandy, however any failure at that time was as much Monty's as it was the over-used, replacement-conscript-filled 51st's in a grinding campaign which resembled WW1 in its casualty lists.
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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby amron » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:04 pm

Thank you Lachlan for that fantastic post..it is so interesting my auntie is coming down to visit and will really appreciate the post.. :D


My Grannys family were brought up in Queen Street Campbeltown..
My Uncle John is in the 1st photo back row right..2nd photo back row right...and in the POW camp backrow 3rd from left hand side with a small x above his head..
He was a farm worker in Southend before he joined up in 1933....the postcard from the POW camp..my aunt thinks it was Stalag 13 was postmarked 6th Dec 1941 she has his discharge book which is dated 1945.
He was known locally as Whispering grass...He worked on the bin lorry and stayed with his sister Isa in Smith Drive neither of them married....
this is them below
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My Uncle Charlie joined the Navy it was not until after the war that my granny found out he was a submariner....he had a bad stutter..
I have no idea where this photo was taken of him
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I also found this photo of my granny's grandfather Charles McMichael from the 1st World War...
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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby kintyre forum news 4 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:42 pm

Amron, just seen your latest pictures. Thanks for sharing it's great to see them. I'm sure everyone appreciates them. Hopefully get more info on them as well. A lesson for us all. Put names on the back

I hope you have lots more.

You should be more careful who you talk to in Tesco
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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby Lachlan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:21 am

Very interesting pics ! Thanks for that.

I haven't loaded my Dad's pics from WW2 but I have a couple of both my Granddads from WW1.

My Granddad Gow, was from Blair Atholl and later married his pal's sister (Margaret Ann Weir) from Ormidale, Glendaruel, settled down at Glen Caladh Estate, where he was gamekeeper (and my dad was born), before moving to South Ronachan Estate, Clachan. Before all that, he joined the 6th Black Watch in WW1, which was part of the 51st Highland Division. He was with the division until May-June 1918, when he was transferred to a newly-forming battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers (probably the 11th Batt) as an NCO. While there, he became friends with Sjt Neil Weir, who similiarly had been transferred from the 8th Argylls. Neil had a sister and the rest is history ! In this photo of the 6th Black Watch, he's the soldier without the moustache.

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As a corporal in the RSF's.

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Granddad on the right with Cpl A. Love, RSF's.

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Last edited by Lachlan on Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby Lachlan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:55 am

On the other side of the family, and a bit away from Kintyre (though my mum loved Kintyre !) was her Dad, my Granddad Peter Montgomery, of Musselburgh, Midlothian. In December 1914, he joined the 2/7th Royal Scots, reserve battalion of the Territorial 7th Royal Scots and became a piper. On 22nd May 1915, the sister active service battalion, the 1/7th, became involved in Britain's worst ever train disaster at Quintinshill, Gretna. The 1,000 men of the 1/7th were on 2 following troop-trains, each with 500 men, en-route for Liverpool Docks, to sail for the Gallipoli campaign as part of 52nd Lowland Division. That morning. the first train slammed into an illegally parked local train on the Southbound line and concertina'd, causing many casualties. Worst still, a late-running London-Glasgow express on the opposite track thundered into the wreckage and dazed survivors on the tracks, setting alight the gas bottles in the troop-train's undercarriage and its wooden carriages. Over 200 men were killed, many burnt to death in the wreckage. Out of the 500 men on the train, only 60 were unharmed and fit for further duty. 23 of those dead came from Musselburgh, a small fishing town and their loss was keenly felt. Streets had drawn curtains, the first time in Scotland that this had happened in this scale. The next time the streets of Scotland would draw curtains in a much bigger scale would be after the Battle of Loos in September/October 1915, where Scotland's Kitchener volunteers, pals of the 9th and 15th Scottish Divisions, were killed in harrowing numbers in Scotland's first big battle on the Western Front. Granddad's 2/7th Royal Scots supplied replacements for the 1/7th's losses at Quintinshill and did so throughout most of the war. Granddad served in Scotland, then defences in Essex (where the battalion guarded the wreckage of a downed Zeppelin in 1916) and went Ireland (Dublin and Curragh) in 1917. He transferred to the 4th Reserve Battalion in 1918.

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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby Lachlan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:09 am

If you could indulge me one more time, I would like to show this pic of my Gt Uncle, David Robertson, from Musselburgh. He was my Mum's mother's brother. He volunteered for Kitchener's army in Musselburgh Town Hall on 2nd June 1915, joining the 8th Service Battalion, Black Watch. He was given the service number S/9365. The 8th BW was in 26th Brigade, 9th (Scottish) Division, which had left its base at Bordon Camp, Aldershot, in April 1915 to go to the Western Front - just 2 weeks before the 51st Highland Division left Bedford for the Western Front. Being a new recruit, David went to the 8th BW's training company left behind at Bordon. By late September, he had completed training well enough to be given a lance-corporal's stripe and command of a section. Used only for training new recruits at square-bashing and 20 day tiresome manoevres under the poor English weather, he felt dissatisfied by his lot and wrote a letter home (which I possess). He had tried to hand back his stripe and just be one of the boys again, but his company captain hauled him over the coals and the stripe would stay ! So then David stated he wanted to get out to the Western Front, to do his bit. That letter was written on 26th September 1915 and unknown to him, the 8th Black Watch and the 9th Scottish Division had been part of an offensive launched at Loos the previous day, the first major Kitchener's Army action, resulting in heavy losses. The battle was ongoing and more men died over the following days. David was in the trenches of Zonnebeke, in No 5 Platoon, B Coy, 8th Black Watch, by mid-October 1915.

I have 14 letters and cards written by David to his mum and dad and his sister between 26 September 1915 and late December 1916. His letters are usually hopeful and talk of home and loved ones, as well as some of the conditions in the trenches. He uses phrases about the future like "if I am spared" and "God willing", however having gone through the hell of the capture of Longueval in July 1916 (where 170 men of the 8th Black Watch were left unharmed out of over 800) and the whole Somme campaign, by the time New Year 1917 approaches, his sentiments have become "Don't worry about me. If it is my time to go under I won't be the only one. Many sons have gone before. This country is a fair graveyard. The kaiser has a lot on his head".

On 9th April 1917, a highly-planned and trained French-British joint attack commenced in two places - the Chemin Des Dames for the French and further North, in the area of Arras for British, Canadian and Australians. The plan was to pinch out the Somme salient North and South. The French under Nivelle, had grand plans to end the war by their thrust. The British would provide a diversion, to attract German forces away from the French front. The British intended to reach the plain of Douai and free up communications networks of road and rail and later to liberate the channel coast. To assist the French further, the British attacks would go in one week before the French attacked, to maximise the number of Germans attracted to the British diversion front.

The attack got off to a great start. The Canadians captured Vimy Ridge, the British pushed out from Arras to the Germans' great surprise but the Aussies in the South suffered a setback at Bullecourt, which was at the Northern end of the newly-built Hindenburg Line. The British pushed the Germans out of their trenches and back for the next 3 days, covering several kilometres. It was the greatest allied advance of the war so far. However, as the days passed, german resistance stiffened as more reinforcements arrived. Finally, the French attack commenced. It was a bloody disaster, with losses so high that French troops refused to continue to attack. The British would have to go it alone. Haig ordered further assaults over the next 3 weeks, at a reduced scale, to gain local advantages. By the end of April, the River Scarpe had become the centre of attention and the capture of villages and vantage points. Locally, the 51st Highland, 9th Scottish, 34th and 4th Divisions had taken turns to capture the villages and features around Roeux. Of particular notoriety was the Chemical Works at Roeux, a fortified machine-gun strongpoint which controlled the area. Roeux was captured by the 51st then lost.

Early in the morning of 2nd May, the 8th Black Watch moved forward into a recently captured and hastily converted German trench line, now called Cuba Trench. The unit of another division they replaced moved out to the rear. 9th Scottish Division's objective would be the German "Weed-Weak" trench line on Greenland Hill opposite. The attack was planned for 4.45am on the Thursday 3rd May, just before dawn. An artillery bombardment would proceed the attack, pinpointing enemy artillery and trenches and the infantry would proceed under an umbrella of fire. Infantry were recently trained in the new SS143 platoon tactics, where small mixed groups of riflemen, rifle-grenadiers, bombers and Lewis-gunners would advance using the ground, rather than the spread-out lines of the Somme 1916. All was set.

Then just a few hours before the assault, High Command decided to bring forward zero hour to 3.45am to surprise the enemy. At that time, it would still be dark. However, it meant the British troops wouldn't have time to lay marker tapes to show paths through the barbed wire hedges etc. Also, the Germans had zeroed their machine-guns and artillery on the British front line, suspecting an attack might happen. Just as worrying, the German trench system was incomplete, so that many groups of Germans, including machine-guns were in undetected fox-holes dotted over No-Man's Land and the British artillery would not know of their existence when they bombarded German positions.

The attack went off at 3.45am. Though a moonlit night, artillery explosions threw up clouds of dust, obscuring objectives in the darkness. The infantry went over the top and immediately became disorientated in the dust-filled darkness. Some battalions collided while others diverged and left gaps, a company of the 10th Argylls luckily filled in one such gap. Some small groups reached German positions and held out as long as they could, but most of the attack became casualties. It was a disaster, repulsed with heavy loss.

S/9365 L/Cpl David Elder Robertson was killed during the attack. He has no known grave, having been buried in a communal grave with his comrades and is remembered on Bay 6 of the Arras War Memorial.

The series of attacks went on, intermittently, until Field Marshal Haig terminated it a few days later, the 51st Highland Division having recaptured Roeux and the Chemical Works. Haig then turned his attention to the Ypres Salient once more. Roeux was in British hands until March-April 1918, when the Germans launched their last major offensive and it was captured once more. It finally came into British hands for the last time in August 1918, when Haig's brilliantly planned Amiens offensive, utilising all the allies, swept the Germans from their trenches and kept them on the run and in the open in a mobile war until the Germans sued for an Armistice in November 1918.

The very field in which Cuba Trench sat and in which David died, is now a peaceful farmer's field once more, viewable on Google Earth. The German positions, so dearly bled for, now holds up a motorway interchange.

The photo was taken at Bordon Camp, Aldershot 1915. David is shown by the X someone put on the photo.

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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby jhowson » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:16 pm

Hi There,
I'm new to the forum and just starting my research into my grandfather's service when I came across these photos. Amron, I was wondering if you had any other information about the men in the second picture from the top of the post - of 7 men leaning on / crouching in front of an Army truck. I think you said your great uncle was the man on the far right of the second row. The man in the middle of the bottom row looks strikingly like my grandfather. His name was James Howson (Jim/Jimmy), from Renfrew, Scotland. He fought with the 8th Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders during WW2. If it is indeed my grandfather, the timeframe as the photo would have been taken at least after Feb 15, 1940 (the day he enlisted).

Anyhow, if you could share any further information on that picture, that'd be great.
Thanks
Jamie
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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby jhowson » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:04 pm

Hi again,
Lachlan - you've posted some great info here! Alot of it is relevant and crosses over with some of the info I've gathered in my own research.

If anyone's interested, here's some further info to add to Lachlan's post on Ark Force and the BEF in France, specifically related to the 8th Battalion of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders:

My grandfather, as part of the 8th, was sent to France as part of a group of reinforcements for the British Expeditionary Forces. He arrived on June 9th, 1940, right in the middle of the retreat to Le Havre. On that day, the battalion had been moving back towards Le Havre as the Germans had broken through the French Army and threatened to cut off the division from headquarters at le Havre and Rouen. Making matters worse, the railway to Rouen had been cut and supplies of ammunition and food were failing to get through.

It was on this day (June 9th), that Ark Force was formed. It was an emergency force made up of the remainder of the 154th Brigade (which included the 8th A&SH) and A Brigade, which consisted of the 4th Border Regiment and two other battalions from the lines of communication. It was commanded by Brigadier Stanley Clarke and was formed with orders to retire to Fecamp and prepare a defensive line, behind which the rest of the 51st division could embark at Le Havre. An interesting note: Ark Force was named so because embarkation was their role. It got its name from the staff of 154 Brigade who drew up the orders.

On June 10th, they were on the march to Fecamp. This brought them close by St. Valery-en-Caux, but never actually into the town. This, as Lachlan mentions, was where much of the remainder of the 51st Highland division were. It is said that the Germans presumed that the entire division was at St Valery and focused all their attention there. Anyhow, despite the German focus on St. Valery, the Ark Force still couldn't hold Fecamp very long due to heavy tank and artillery in the area so they retreated to just outside Le Havre.

On June 11th, midday, an officer arrived with news from divisional headquarters that the division wouldn't get to Le Havre and that Ark Force would need to arrange its own evacuation. They luckily still had contact with the Royal Navy and even more luckily, no confrontation was had on both the 11th and 12th, while the plans were drawn up. The Germans, seemingly focusing entirely on St. Valery.

Under cover of darkness, they were evacuated on June 12th on the M.S. Tynwald or the S.S. Amsterdam but despite their hopes, they didn't actually return directly to the U,K. Instead they were shipped south to Cherbourg to help reinforce the 52nd division. They arrived on the 11th and took up post in an orchard just outside of town. They stayed there, with no confrontation until the 15th when they boarded the S.S. Duke of Argyll and arrived back in Southampton (U.K.) on the 16th. My grandfather was one of those lucky ones who didn't find himself in St. Valery and/or get taken prisoner. He made it back to the UK with this force and was later sent along with the 8th Battalion A&SH to fight with the First Army in North Africa (landing in Bougie on 11/11/43), Sicily, Italy, ultimately ending up in Austria at the end of the war.

To add to Lachlan's post, there's a great account of the 51st Highland Division's time in France here http://51hd.co.uk/accounts/leaving_lille as well as here http://51hd.co.uk/accounts/ark_force.

At St. Valery, the 51st put up a valiant last stand but it was to no avail, and they surrendered on June 12th, when more than 10,000 members of the 51st highland division were taken prisoner. It has been said that, from the British point of view, this battle marked the end of the Allied resistance during the battle of France.

Lots of interesting stuff and hopefully it's of interest to some of you. I've pieced most of it together with various sources, including the regimental history of the 8th battalion and other books and online sources.

Enjoy
Jamie
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Re: Some old regiment photos...

Postby bill » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:47 pm

Hi Jamie, I have previously mentioned on the forum that my Dad was one of the few to escape from St.Valery and make it home. After his leave he spent the rest of the war in Birmingham as part of an anti aircraft regiment.
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