The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Shona » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:01 pm

OK - here goes, let's see what proof there is to back up the the account in The Story of Capt John Fleming RN OR the family history compiled 100 years ago.

Unless otherwise stated, the marriages, births and baptisms are in Campbeltown. A huge problem is that many of the records for the Lowland Congregation in C/T prior to 1774 are illegible.

From The Story of Capt John Fleming RN:

...the story begins in 1658 when Fleming’s great-great-great-grandparents, James Flemying and Jenat Strang, from Kirktoune of Kilbryde, now better known as East Kilbride, came to the holding of ‘Bellirgiemore’ in Kintyre.

The OPRs for C/T have the following marriage in 1686 - John Fleming married Jean Strang.

However, I can't find any baptisms for children of this couple.

I can't decide whether this proves that the ancestors of John Fleming RN came from Ayshire or not, but it proves that there was an early Fleming-Strang marriage in Campbeltown.

There are two other male Fleming marriages from the 17th century:

1681 David married Katrine Wallace
1698 John married ????

Next I looked at the info you provided that says John Fleming married 1) Jean Kirkland and 2) Agnes Langwell. I identified the following three baptisms for children of John and Jean, which fits in with the marriage date of 1736 which you provided.

Matthew 12 Nov 1740 John and Jean Kirkland
Matthew 21 Nov 1742 John and Jean Kirkland
Jean 29 May 1745 John and Jean Kirkland

This confirms your account that Matthew Fleming's parents were John and Jean Kirkland. I haven't found a baptism for William, though. However, a William Fleming married Elizabeth Ferguson in Killean parish in 1784.

I can find two baptisms for chidren of John and Agnes Fleming. However, there is nothing to indicate that this Agnes was a Langwill. All the other baptisms from this peiord mention the mother's maiden surname. So whoever this John is, he seems to have married a cousin.

Archibald 8 Aug 1744 John and Agnes Fleming
Janet 14 Sept 1746 John and Agnes Fleming

I also found this baptism.

Elibath b 7 June 1763 John and Ann Langwill

There are also children being born to a James Fleming and Janet Langwill around the same time.

James Dec 1740 James and Janet Languill
Agnus b 29 Oct 1762 James and Janet Langwill
Mary b 9 Oct 1765 James and Janet Langwill

Turning to Matthew Fleming and Jean Porter. I have found just one birth for this couple.

Jean b 15 Dec 1770 Matthew and Jean Porter

I'll leave it at that for the moment and post some other info in the next few days.

Cheers,

Shona
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Iain » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:13 am

Wow ! :wink:
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby ANNE WELLSTEAD » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:35 am

Hi Shona -

The family tree we have (which eventually includes bachelor Glasgow Ironmaster ALEXANDER FLEMING - a quarter of whose enormous estate came down to my great grandfather [and his nephew] JOHN WATSON in New Zealand, son of ELIZABETH nee FLEMING 1810-87, which regrettably has since been dissipated !) seems to have been constructed in the early years at least from parish records, tombstones, etc. but obviously with additional info. such as "Went to Marietta, Ohio, America" in the early 1800s, which we assume might have come from shipping passenger lists and subsequent investigations outside Kintyre.

The tree as we received it covers the extended family to the early 1900s. There are no MALCOLMs on it, so we cannot help you there. The first line of the tree does mention the likelihood of other FLEMING strains in Kintyre: "In addition to these (three brothers), there was another JOHN FLEMING, a contemporary in Kirkmichael, m. Orsla Brakewridge and they left a family, and probably there were at the same time other FLEMINGs in Kintyre".

Thanks for getting in touch. Hope you find your ancestor somehow, although there are so many FLEMINGs with the same first names that tracing back is clearly not easy - e.g. the discrepancy between our records and Bill's, where the original WILLIAM had a son WILLIAM, as did the original JAMES !

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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby bill » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:28 am

ANNE WELLSTEAD wrote:
the discrepancy between our records and Bill's,


Please be advised that what you are referring to are not my records.The story is ,as I stated in my original posting, to be found at the link below.
I have no interest what so ever in genealogy. In fact I go along with John D.Reid when he said ..............

"If you think your carefully-researched genealogy is error free -- that's a delusion! It's not a question of whether there are errors but how many."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2724474/Searc ... -1772-1849
I know my Summer'll never come
I know I'll cry until my dying day has come
Let the Winter roll along
I've got nothing left but song
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby ANNE WELLSTEAD » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:12 am

Apologies to Bill ! In similar vein, my husband's uncle once famously responded to a genealogy nut who had sought him out, that whilst his sister may be interested to help with the particular enquiry, "... as for myself," he said, "I believe the past is best left alone".

Thanks to Shona for your helpful research. As you have shown that Captain John Fleming was in fact the nephew of my ancestor William born 1738, I think for us it only remains to determine whether that line came down from William who died in 1689 or James who died in 1674.

Our tree shows William's children as Janet, William, John, Jean, Archibald, Margaret, Mary, and Agnes; and James's children as Ann, Agnes, Archibald, David, and William. There is no further information on James's children.

Perhaps the problem lies in the illegible records you mention, Shona, and the assumptions made by researchers. Many of the names you mention crop up in our tree either slightly differently or in different generations or in different spousal relationships. Regardless you have cleared up some of our uncertainties, which we much appreciate. Hopefully you may come up with more in the course of your own researches.

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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Shona » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:23 pm

Scottish naming traditions means that the names will perpeturate through the generations. Also as Lowland planters, they would marry within their own community, so the same surnames will appear again and again, too.

The following infromation comes frm Andrew McKerral's book, Kintyre in the 17th Century.

Appendix 2 contains notes on the Lowland Plantation familes. The sources are rentals, OPRs, registers of testaments an dinventories and sassine registers.

First, it should be noted that the Flemings were not amond the original 12 tacksmen brought in by Argyll to 'colonise' the Campbeltown area.

Fleming

James, tacksman of Ballevean, 1666
David in Brecklate, rebel, 1685
Archibald, in town, rebel, 1685
John in Ballevean, 1692
David in Kilellan, 1692
William in Garvochie, 1692
John in Killeonan, 1692

Captain John Fleming RN, of the Ballivean family...his mother, Jean Porter of Crossibeg family.

Thre is also some info in the book about the Maxwell family which you mentioned.

'The Maxwells of Southbar were the proprietors of the estate of that name in Renfrewshire...John Maxwell of Southbar was probably the first member of the family who had, under the name, Southbar, a tack of the four merkland of Ballivean, Knocknagour and Drumlea, for 21 years from Whitsunday 1673. This John is buried in Kilkenzie, where his tombstone records that he died in 1677 at the age of 77. Along with him was buried Alexander Dunlop, son of the Laird of Garnkirk.

James, the Laird of Dunlop, had an estate of that name in Ayrshire. John Dunlop, a brother of the Laird, James, had purchased the estate of Garnkirk in Lanarkshire in 1634.
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Iain » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:15 am

Shona..., you are always a hive of information ! :wink: (and all written by hand ! Not digitally transferred)
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Shona » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:15 pm

I've gone through land rental records and hearth tax records and have put together this list of Flemings. As the Fleming family have been associated with Ballivean, I've also added references to it.

1650s - no mention of the Flemings

Land Rental
1666
James Fleming, Backs

Land Rental
1666
Ballivean and Knocknagurr to Donald McNeill

Land Rental
1669
Ballivean and others to Lieut Coll Ro't Campbell

Land Rental
1669
Ba(??????) to Ja fflemyng

1673
John Maxwell takes Ballevean for 21 years.

Maxwell dies in 1677

Land Rental
1691
Archibald Fleming, mason, Campbetown

1692
John Fleming, Ballevean

Hearth Tax
2 ffebry 1694
Ard fflimine, Campbeltown

Heath Tax
1694
Donald Flimin and John Wallace, Braikled

1706
Deed written by John Fleming son of James Fleming in Drumore. Witnesses: John Campbell of Glenurchy and Duncan Campbell servitor to the Earl

Land rental
6 May 1709
William Fleming in Garvachy and John Fleming in Ballivean
4 1/2 mklands of Ballivean presently possesst by the George Maxwell of Soutbar

Land Rental
12 Oct 1709
Coll McAllister in Ashmilnbeg, mkland of Kirafuar presently possesst by Neil Fleming and other teneants thereof. 17 years

Land rental
12 Oct 1709
Neil Fleming in Ballobrenan and Malcom Fleming his oldest son, 2 mkland of Ballobrenan and Ballimenoch presently possesst by themselves. 17 years.
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby ANNE WELLSTEAD » Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

Shona - and anyone else who might be able to help -
In my earlier posts I mentioned Elizabeth Fleming 1810-87, whose great grandfather John Fleming of Balivean c.1742 was Captain John Fleming's grandfather.
She married a John Watson 1804-65, and her first son John Watson 1844-1918 went to New Zealand in 1863 where he became a successful industrialist at Thames.
It occurs to me that in researching the Flemings, including Alexander Fleming of ?Flemings Land, someone may have come across that first John Watson and may be able to throw some light on his forebears. We do not know whether he was a Kintyre man, but think it likely.
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Iain » Fri May 10, 2013 4:48 am

Hi Anne ! Have you tried the simplest solution to continue your research..., Google ! In 30 seconds I got over a million pages with the first being :
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi ... 80710.2.15

Also, for research purposes before their departure date you may find a lot of entries at the following:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=15711

Have a nice day..., Iain.
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby ANNE WELLSTEAD » Fri May 10, 2013 9:53 am

Thanks a lot for the leads Iain ! Had not previously seen the NZ obituary on my Gt Grandfather John Watson 1844-1918, and got a couple of extra bits of family history out of it. Have also registered for the British archive you recommended. The trouble with my past Google searches for G.Gt G/father John Watson 1804-65 is that John Watson is such a common name, and even with his wife's name and possible placenames added I have not found anything that looks remotely like him. Incidentally I agree with you that a narrative is superior to bald BDM info, and my husband and I have tried to pepper all of our family narratives (for those who will eventually become interested) with anecdotes, historic and social contexts, and unusual angles. I note that I am straying from the Captain John Fleming topic, so had better desist ! Many thanks again - Anne Wellstead
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Iain » Sun May 26, 2013 2:21 pm

Just found this in the Fife Herald, 17 May, 1860. Still not had the time to verify if it's the same man..., but there's no smoke without fire !
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6881 ... pt17ma.jpg
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Shona » Wed May 29, 2013 7:27 am

Interesting snippet, Iain. If it is him, he must have been nearing 100 years old.
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby Iain » Wed May 29, 2013 9:31 am

Hmm ! A bit confusing and I don’t have the time to do the research !

Bill wrote:
http://fr.scribd.com/doc/2724474/Search ... -1772-1849
“Search for a Sword” - The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N. (1772 - 1849)

Could it have taken 11 years to have gone through the courts ?
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Re: The Story of Captain John Fleming R.N.

Postby ANNE WELLSTEAD » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:16 am

For Iain and anyone else who may have noted my search for the family antecedents of John Watson 1804-65, husband of Elizabeth Fleming 1810-87 who was a second cousin of Capt. John Fleming RN:
Thanks to Iain and others, I have now located same - John Watson's father William was a farmer at Cleongart, 1766- ?, his mother Catherine McWilliam 1778- ?. William's parents were Robert Watson 1737 - ?, also from Cleongart, and Janet Templeton 1742 - ?. Catherine's parents were Alexander McWilliam and Jean Thomson, don't know where from. Also managed to track down a UK descendant of my grandfather's older brother John Watson 1873-1955, an engineer who left New Zealand (for reasons of which I am not aware, surprising given that his own father part-owned a similar business in NZ) sometime before 1918, and worked for Cammel Laird UK. Thanks for all helpful pointers.
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