Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

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Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby hoots the scoop » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:53 am

Interesting article on the Muslim veil on the BBC website

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8481617.stm

Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

A French parliamentary committee has recommended a partial ban on women wearing Islamic face veils. So should there be a similar ban in the UK - and would it work?

Just across the English Channel, allowing a woman to veil her face in public places such as hospitals, government offices and on public transport could soon be called into question.

In a country where the separation of state and religion is enshrined in law, a parliamentary committee report ruled the veil was "contrary to the values of the republic" and called on parliament to adopt a formal resolution proclaiming "all of France is saying 'no' to the full veil".

France - which is home to five million Muslims - has a history of debating the full veil, with President Nicolas Sarkozy declaring it "not welcome" in 2010.

The country banned Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols at state schools in 2004.

Despite calls from some groups for a full or partial ban on veils, there is currently no ban on Islamic dress in the UK - although schools were allowed to set out their own dress code in 2007 after several high-profile court cases.

But could a ban by Britain's nearest continental neighbours influence policy back home?

In January 2010, Schools Secretary Ed Balls said it was "not British" to tell people what to wear in the street.

But writing in the Independent, journalist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, who chairs the group British Muslims for Secular Democracy, said she supported restrictions on wearing the face veil in key public spaces.

"This covering makes women invisible, invalidates their participatory rights and confirms them as evil temptresses.

"I feel the same fury when I see Orthodox Jewish women in wigs, with their many children, living tightly proscribed lives," she writes.

She said progressive Muslims came out "daily" against the burka, which was an "un-Islamic custom".

"During the Hajj pilgrimage no woman covers her face. The burka makes women more, not less, conspicuous, and communication is unequal because one party hides all expression," she claimed.

'Mutual respect'

However, Yvonne Ridley, a British journalist who converted to Islam after she was captured by the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001, said the French decision was "driven by Islamophobia - not the freedom or liberties of women".

She said she did not know anyone who had been forced to wear the niqab (which covers the face apart from the eyes) or the body-covering burka.

Some Muslims chose to wear the niqab for religious reasons - because they believed it brought them closer to their faith - she said.

She said the UK "would not tolerate" a move like the one in France.

"Muslim women in Britain are more empowered than their sisters on the continent, largely because of the amazing anti-war movement which brought secular women alongside Muslim women."

She said she understood why some people found the veil "unnerving", but insisted "everyone should have a choice".

Only a "tiny minority" of Muslims - a couple of thousand - wore the niqab in the UK, and "most of them were white Western converts who you could not say were quiet, suppressed women," she said.

"We can't allow legislation against the niqab. If we let it go the hijab will be next. Everyone should have choice. Where would it stop, hair dye, face piercing?", she said.

'Election tool'

Shaista Gohir, executive director at Muslim Women's Network UK, agreed the face veil should not be banned in the UK, but said there needed to be a "internal debate amongst the Muslim community".

"There needs to be more research on why some women choose to wear the veil and how they think they are perceived. Muslim communities need to instigate, be proactive, rather than wait for politicians like Jack Straw to say something and respond," she said.

In 2006, Jack Straw angered Muslim groups after he said face veils were a "visible statement of separation and of difference" and suggested they could make community relations harder.

Ms Gohir said she could understand people might have reservations about the impact the veil had on integration - and it might prevent women from gaining employment - but a minority of Muslims felt the interpretation of Islam meant wearing a veil was part of their religion.

She said veils needed to be looked at "properly" in a "non-racist way".

But she expressed concern that politicians might use "issues like this" in the lead-up to the elections.

Last week ex-UKIP leader Nigel Farage, who leads UKIP's 13 MEPs in Brussels, said the veils were a symbol of an "increasingly divided Britain", that they "oppressed" women, and were a potential security threat - and called for a total ban.

The BNP has already called for the veil to be banned in schools.

"Muslims are obviously in the spotlight. The BNP and UKIP are playing on an anti-Muslim sentiment; there is a real concern the face veil and issues like it will be used as an election tool", said Ms Gohir.

"Just because France are doing something, Britain does not have to follow suit."
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby Govangirl » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:38 pm

I think the idea of an outright ban on religious garments was preposterous from the start and I don’t think a government has the right to tell its citizens what they can and cannot wear. Why should women be criminalised for wearing a piece of cloth? Personally, I hate to see women wearing veils but I would defend any woman's right to wear the flaming things.
The problem comes when there is security involved and in certain public places they would be required to remove them. Any other change must come from within their own religious organisation and even better, Muslim women themselves.
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby blueboyno1 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:49 am

As you say G.G they should be allowed to wear what they want ,but as you also say in the case of security they should be made to remove it .The Burka which is from top to toe has the potential for hiding anything under it ,and that is a scary thought ,even seeing a woman in this scares the begeebers out of me .I travel to turkey two/three times a year and see many women wearing them and every time i see them it sends shivers through me .It is so sinister looking .I have seen many of them walking along hotel corridors and they seem to be hovering .For all anyone knows it could be a man under one ,even Bin Laden himself. :lol:
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby Govangirl » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:56 am

You're absolutely right there Blueboy. Still, I don't know what Glasgow religious background you come from yourself but growing up, I thought exactly the same about nuns! :oops:
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby blueboyno1 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:08 am

Correct G.G ,Even though i am not of that faith i have a wee bit mure trust that they wont be suiside bombers .

Jeez just had a thought flying nuns. :D
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby Bobh » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:31 am

BB, Loved that :lol:
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby History » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:03 am

Govangirl wrote:I thought exactly the same about nuns! :oops:


As this thread is asking about veils on muslims I can't see the connection with nuns. Unless of course there is a religious order somewhere that they do?
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby blueboyno1 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:44 pm

History wrote:
Govangirl wrote:I thought exactly the same about nuns! :oops:


As this thread is asking about veils on muslims I can't see the connection with nuns. Unless of course there is a religious order somewhere that they do?


can't seem to understand what you mean History ,but i think G.G was commenting on my post about women in burkas seeming to hover ,Nuns habiits used to go right down to the ground and when viewed from behind they lookesd the same
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby Govangirl » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:02 pm

Exactly Blueboy - History, you need to lighten up. Why is there always someone 'monitoring' every printed word in case it's the slightest wee bit off topic?

So . . . :roll: back on topic, BB, that is certainly a point about being bombers but is security the only reason against veils and burkhas?
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby blueboyno1 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:19 pm

Security as well as it being antisocial G,G, There is nothing more off puiiing than sitting in a nice restuarant having a nice meal when at the next table is sat a woman dressed in the full burka .When we were in Turkey last October which was the start of the Turkish holidays we were in the dining room one night and the woman next to us was trying to eat under the veil ,how the hell she managed it i dont know. It is also kind of scary to some kids.
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby £3.73 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:03 pm

For Muslim, substitute Jew .... then marvel at how a whole nation got conned (WW2 era Germany)

Seriously, the more of this stuff I read, the more I want to throw up !

WAKE UP FFS !!!
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby EMDEE » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:00 am

I must admit that I find this garb a bit sinister looking, but it is not really up to others to dictate whether it should be worn or not if it is a religious requirement.

These women must be really very servile to put up with the wearing of this garment, and it should be up to them to object to it if they feel that way. Maybe they don't.

Maybe some of them look better with it on! :<> :lol:

Was there not a story in the news a while back about a wanted suspected terrorist who donned one of these things so that he would not be detected?
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby Govangirl » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:59 am

I agree EMDEE and if it is their true choice of clothing, fine. Call me stupid but I don't get your argument £3.73. My only concern over this clothing is over the subjugation of women.
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby bill » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:16 pm

blueboyno1 wrote:The Burka which is from top to toe has the potential for hiding anything under it ,and that is a scary thought ,even seeing a woman in this scares the begeebers out of me .I travel to turkey two/three times a year and see many women wearing them and every time i see them it sends shivers through me .It is so sinister looking .


Personally I feel the sight of a gang of youths with their hoods up,and scarfs covering their face a lot more sinister.
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Re: Should the UK ban the Muslim face veil?

Postby blueboyno1 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:34 pm

bill wrote:
blueboyno1 wrote:The Burka which is from top to toe has the potential for hiding anything under it ,and that is a scary thought ,even seeing a woman in this scares the begeebers out of me .I travel to turkey two/three times a year and see many women wearing them and every time i see them it sends shivers through me .It is so sinister looking .


Personally I feel the sight of a gang of youths with their hoods up,and scarfs covering their face a lot more sinister.



Not seen a lot of that in Turkey
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