Gary McKinnon

[Govangirl]

Sheik, this man is aged 43 - please tell me how many people of that age in this country have been diagnosed with Asperger's and we'll write their names on the back of a matchbox. Perhaps if adults today had better support systems for their autism and obsessive behaviours Gary might not be facing decades of prison life. To this day he has not been given any professional support. Do a bit of research on him Sheik and you'll discover a life filled with all the anxieties and fears of social interaction. These days, discrimination on the basis of someone's race, gender, age, height, sexual orientation, accent, social status and disability is against the law but ASD is an invisible disability and people on it are sadly subjected to bullying and rejection every day. It is unacceptable. And this man's inhumane treatment is unacceptable too.
Seriously, I am very concerned that you think his diagnosis was cleverly discovered. What would have been 'clever' would have been for his perfectly obvious Asperger symptoms to have been picked up in childhood and for him to have been given proper support instead of struggling with the condition half his life with the prospect of spending the rest of it behind bars for acts committed with absolutely no malice. Do others really believe that his condition has been introduced by his lawyers as some kind of cunning plan? In fact, by all accounts, his lawyers seem to have been woefully ignorant of the syndrome and didn't consider it until specialists took the initiative and wrote to them pointing out the symptoms.
To anyone with experience of the syndrome, his Asperger traits are as plain as Ionnsaigh's religious denomination. He was diagnosed by the top psychologist in the land and it is astonishing that there are even any doubts that he does not have this disorder. Have you seen his interviews - the symptoms of his neuro untypical behaviour and obsessions are in front of your face.
The fact that things came to this before anyone noticed them is a shocking indictment of how little awareness there is of this condition.

[Sheik Yir Erse]

OK, nice big long rant about Aspergers there, very little to do with the point at hand, and all to do with why he's not been supported or diagnosed throughout his life, awareness of the condition, discrimination, etc

My arguement is quite simple, he committed a crime, he admitted to the crime, he should face the consequences of his actions. Is the jist of your arguement - he's got a condition, therefore the laws of the land don't apply

Is it possible to disassociate the arguement from the actual condition in question?

[Rabmacd]

It may well be that when/if he is tried in an American court of law, his condition will have some bearing on the outcome. I agree that he should face the consequences of his actions. It wasn't only a one time delve into the wrong site, it was an alleged breaking down of a series of systems over a prolonged period of time, by a guy that knew how to do it. There must be a load of American lawyers queing up for this case.

Reminds me of Frank Abignal. Furory about it at the time, he got jailed, but the guy is now one of the foremost authorities, and paid as such, experts on bank fraud in the world. For those that don't know, he was the guy that the film "Catch Me If You Can" was about. A serial fraudster, but now respected. I think someone else stated, in an earlier post, that Gary McKinnon will probably end up working for the Americans on how to secure their systems. That wouldn't surprise me.

[History]

All criminals look for excuses. He is no different from the other law breakers who are only sorry when they get caught.

[Govangirl]

My arguement is quite simple, he committed a crime, he admitted to the crime, he should face the consequences of his actions. Is the jist of your arguement - he's got a condition, therefore the laws of the land don't apply

I am not saying he should not be punished, just that he can be dealt with in THIS country and given a prison sentence that fits the crime. This is an argument about extradition and Gary McKinnon will not be able to cope in a foreign land with no acccess to the people on whom he depends.
And no, sorry, I do not think It is possible to disassociate the argument from the actual condition in question. His condition is the reason why we should be fighting his extradition so I am every bit as as you are Sheik.

All criminals look for excuses. He is no different from the other law breakers who are only sorry when they get caught.

Very compassionate History.

[Bobh]

RabMd, It was me who posted that he may/will end up working for the US Govt. Good contacts.

[Sheik Yir Erse]

he can be dealt with in THIS country and given a prison sentence that fits the crime.

Why should we try him for a crime that was committed in the US. What gives us the rights to determine the appropriate prison sentence for someone who committed a crime in another country. Is that not arrogance in the extreme to state that the US are incapable of passing down a sentence that fits the crime, but we are?

Gary McKinnon will not be able to cope in a foreign land with no acccess to the people on whom he depends.

..... and you know this because? Ahhhh, because all his supporters have told us so.

I've been searching the BBC for ages to find this clip, as I remember watching it at the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4715612.stm

Here's a man on national television, in front of millions of people, speaking very clearly, calmly and effectively. You're obviously alot more read up on this than me Govangirl, but I didn't see "the symptoms of his neuro untypical behaviour and obsessions in front of my face". This doesn't strike me as the typical actions of a man terrorised by social interaction or changes in his environment, but then again......maybe just me.

As seems to be the normal in our discussions I think we're going to have to agree to disagree

[Govangirl]

Why should we try him for a crime that was committed in the US.

Nope, it was in THIS country.

As for the rest, I give up

[Sheik Yir Erse]

Nope, it was in THIS country.

Sorry Govangirl, but that's a fundamental misunderstanding - it's where the crime is actually committed, not where it originates from. This is all set out in the law of the land - and that is why he's being extradited. He's tried to challenge this all the way to the European Court of Human Rights, without success.

Quite simply his supporters don't want him to be extradited because he is likely to face a harsher penalty IF FOUND GUILTY. Everyone bandies around the term "60 years", but that's an absolute maximum and let's at least allow the American legal system to hear all the evidence and decide upon his guilt or innocence.

Sometimes I wish people were as afraid of the UK's sentencing policy.

[Rabmacd]

Quite simply his supporters don't want him to be extradited because he is likely to face a harsher penalty IF FOUND GUILTY. Everyone bandies around the term "60 years", but that's an absolute maximum and let's at least allow the American legal system to hear all the evidence and decide upon his guilt or innocence.

Correct Sheik. It appears to me that his "supporters" know he is guilty and just don't want him to be sent to America to serve the time. I think that somewhere in all this mess, it's been forgotten that the guy has still to be tried, by a justice system.

He will get a slap on the wrist, that's as long as he doesn't have repetitive strain syndrome on it. I can't think of a high profile case, in America, where the jury didn't find in favour the accused------O.J.---- M.J (twice maybe). The only one that did get it, big time , was Martha Stewart, and she was only cooking the books!

[Govangirl]

Is it possible to disassociate the arguement from the actual condition in question?

Didn't seem to be the case when a certain criminal flew home to Libya for the rest of his (long) life

But maybe that's just me...

[Sheik Yir Erse]

Didn't seem to be the case when a certain criminal flew home to Libya for the rest of his (long) life

But maybe that's just me...

Wow GG, not like you - random, spurious, and totally unrelated to the case in question

[Govangirl]

Wow, Sheik, not like you to be so patronising

Well, let me kindly explain my random, spurious, unrelated idea:

Is it possible to disassociate the argument (extraditition) from the actual condition in question (Asperger's)? Case of Gary McKinnon.


VERSUS

Is it possible to disassociate the argument (extradition) from the actual condition in question (so-called terminal illness)? Case of aforementioned Libyan gentleman.

I was merely pointing out that in a previous extradition case, the argument was in fact not disassociated from the criminal's condition.

Anyway, I'm going back to Rod Stewart and keeping out of Current Affairs now. Fed up getting into trouble

[ionnsaigh]

You see I'm on a moral crusade to save the world. I believe that the United States government, is swayed by both the Multinational Oil Companies - and Americas dependence on the black stuff. I believe that documented evidence exists that proves not only the existence and superiority ( in terms of evolution ) of another alien race - combined with the fact that this race - use pollution free power. Something that these companies don't want us to hear about - so much so that they have infiltrated governments worldwide. So I will hack into the system for the benefit of mankind.
I don't have Asperger's.. you do.... well done mate.

[Sheik Yir Erse]

I can see the similarities right enough:

Megrahi:
Extradited to face trial: Yes
Tried where crime committed: Yes
Law Applied: Yes
Convicted: Yes
Served Sentence: Yes
Protesting Innocence: Yes
Terminally Ill: Yes

McKinnon
Extradited to face trial: No
Tried where crime committed: No
Convicted: No
Law Applied: No
Served Sentence: No
Protesting Innocence: No
Terminally Ill: No

But apart from that, they're exactly the same!

Two entirely different cases, and entirely different ends of the judicial system. One has been through the system and out the other side (whether you agree with that or not), whilst the other is trying to avoid it.

What I meant be disassociating the condition from the argument was, would your argument be different if the condition was different? e.g had he been suffering from Depression, or been Bi-Polar. You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis (perhaps due to personal experience) on the Aspergers part of the situation.

Anyway, I've got hundreds more people to patronise, so I'd better get back to that

Finally, Ionns - give us a clue what you're on about