Sturgeon

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Re: Sturgeon

Postby Hume » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:17 am

Lochend, I didn't say anything about £24bn of oil revenue - I think someone else may have. You've got me wrong if you think Independence to me is primarily about oil revenue.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be basing your argument for Scotland remaining in the UK on the fact we have a joint means of defence at present and basically it has always (for 300 years anyway) been that way? That would be what I read in to your points relating to Scandinavia and Ireland.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people, maybe even supporters of the Union, who wished we didn't have a joint means of defence considering some of the ventures in the recent past!

Finally, what would you say makes the Scots so different from the Irish? Ireland was once part of the same State as us until Independence, so things change. I think the argument that we should stick with the UK because its always been that way in living memory and because of good things that have happened in the past, is about as weak an argument as there is.
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

Yes, I believe Scotland is a country and should therefore govern itself.
No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby lochend » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:16 am

Hume,of course oil is not the only issue.I think you may be referring to the interventions Iraq etc and you may have an argument but to suggest that has a direct connection to defence just confuses the issue. I abhor nuclear weapons but I wish my grandchildren to have the same sort of security that I enjoyed ,however precarious.You can not deny that certain states who actually hate our way of life are actively seeking to obtain nuclear weapons and have the financial clout to enable them to do so.To rid our countries of this unpleasant defence would be like the human bomb detector whose technique is to close his eyes,put his hands over his ears and moves forward gingerly stamping the floor in front of him! My point about the Irish was a reaction to you suggesting that Sweden,Norway and Denmark being separate countries yet still being Scandinavian. The Irish are a separate country of course but they will not be called British.NB. I am sure there are many keen supporters of Scottish independence who are uneasy about giving up the nuclear deterrent!
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby Hume » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:49 pm

OK, lochend, I see what you were meaning now. To be fair, you didn't actually mention Trident initially. That in itself is a big topic, isn't it.

You seem convinced of the need for them so what exactly are they a deterrent against?

As for the identity thing, just to be clear, I'm sure some but not all Danes, Swedes & Norwegians will identify as being Scandinavian, just the same as some Scots will identify as also British and some won't.

I also accept there is probably much (much) less of a cross over in Ireland with British and Irish identity now i.e. its probably one or the other but prior to Independence a lot more people, in what became RoI, were happy to be part of the UK of GB&I. Ireland has had a near 100 year start on Scotland though, during which British identity will have diminished over a few generations.

Despite the UK remaining intact, I think British identity is already diminishing, not only in Scotland but elsewhere, perhaps most importantly in England. I know it might seem inconceivable now but the point you have made about the Irish not being called British, may well apply in Scotland come 2115. It was probably just as inconceivable in Ireland in 1915, albeit the Irish had been part of the UK for much less time than Scotland has, so perhaps the ties were not as strong to begin with.

All generalisations and conjecture, I know.
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

Yes, I believe Scotland is a country and should therefore govern itself.
No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby lochend » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:54 pm

Hume,you ask what Trident is a deterrent against. Is the idea of,perhaps, a middle eastern state,whether extant or a future caliphate, heaven forbid,obtaining nuclear weapons not a possibility? Given the freely expressed hatred of our way of life is not some possible nuclear adventure not a possibility? I would suggest a country's ability to retaliate in full measure is a deterrent indeed.More worrying for me is the attempts by Putin to return Russia into military superpower status. Regular reports are received of BRITISH fighter planes being scrambled to intercept Russian bombers entering British airspace (often north of the border) presumably testing for defensive weaknesses.I remember living through the Cuban missile crisis and was glad indeed that the west had sufficient ICBM to prevent a terrifying escalation.I wish I shared the optimism of some of you anti deterrent people,probably much younger than I, but I truly believe some of this optimism is misplaced!
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby gray_marian » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:47 am

Nov 6th 'Marian,but do you still feel comfortable having allegiance to the Union Jack? Each to their own is a fundamental right as you say but is there not a certain sense of being bullied by the more extreme Nats?'


My apologies lochend for not replying sooner, have been busy. To answer your question I have no problem whatsoever with allegiance to the Union Jack. Yes I do believe there is a bullying fraction in the SNP, plain for all to see if you have a mind to watch their ranting wherever they gather in public and to me they do a great disservice to their party. I find them so provincial that I have to switch over.
Due to the Scots sending an expedition out in 1698 to try and build a canal across the isthmus, [later the Panama Canal] out of the 5000 men who went over 2000 failed to return and it bankrupted the country which was bailed out in 1707 by England and thus started the United Kingdom. I doubt very much they would do so again and therefore am not about to risk it. I think we can hold our own to trade with the rest of the world as long as we are united whether we remain in Europe or not. Asian countries are the way forward now, Scotland is small fry for that market in my opinion
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby lochend » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:44 pm

Marian.Thanks for reply.I have to admit I knew nothing about the Panama adventure,at first I thought you were talking about the canal that used to run coal from to pit, pre. wee railway days! I must research that one, thank you.
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby gray_marian » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:40 am

Here you go lochend, I enjoyed it, hope you do to.

The Path Between the Seas by David McCullough ISBN -13 978-0-671-24409-5

The creation of the Panama Canal 1870 - 1914
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby Bitter End » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:34 pm

Weel weel now ----Aye 1707 and the union o the Parliaments an the big bail out -----
an please remember wher it stertit wi the Scottish King becomin the English King anaw in 1603
---- http://digital.nls.uk/unionofcrowns/ --- sum highly entetainin readin in ther espec efter 1625 whin HE went and died oan thim
Twice through the eye o' the sun to lift it.
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Re: Sturgeon

Postby gray_marian » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:07 pm

Thank you Bitter End, look forward to refreshing my memory on the 82 years in-between, all reading matter most welcome, still bankrupt though!
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