Independence

This forum provides an opportunity for people to debate and discuss the latest current events; to talk about what's going on in the world today and discuss what's behind the news headlines.

Re: Independence

Postby Govangirl » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:18 pm

LANDROVER ROGER wrote:Bertie.Baz`s arrogant,often personally insulting remarks to members on this thread deserved my remark.Not a cheap shot.Read his posts again.


Just because we think someone is arrogant . . . or crass, stupid, ignorant or whatever, shouldn't be a reason to be ungracious. The time to attack any comment of his has now passed.
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted
User avatar
Govangirl
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Sassenachland


Re: Independence

Postby Martin » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:29 pm

One thing I've always loved about this forum is certain member's ability to understand humour. Ha ! Lighten up folks, and see posts for what they are, if you can see past the end of your own noses that is.
Ouch !
User avatar
Martin
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:36 pm
Location: Bomber County


Re: Independence

Postby Govangirl » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:42 pm

Martin, let's not fall out about this. I personally thought your remark was silly and we are free to say so. And I have a very small nose which enables me to see clearly beyond it, thank you :wink: And ha, ha, good to see we are again arguing over the more important things than a historic, life-changing vote!!!!! :lol:
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted
User avatar
Govangirl
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Sassenachland


Re: Independence

Postby Martin » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:07 pm

Ha Ha Ha, good on yer Mrs. Nesbit. Well said.
Ouch !
User avatar
Martin
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:36 pm
Location: Bomber County


Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:14 pm

I am watching Channel 4 news and hoping to God that it does not kick off violently in Glasgow.
LANDROVER ROGER
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3121
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 10:39 am


Re: Independence

Postby Govangirl » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:25 pm

LANDROVER ROGER wrote:I am watching Channel 4 news and hoping to God that it does not kick off violently in Glasgow.


Oh yes, I hope too because these Weegies are inherently such a violent lot, aren't they?
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted
User avatar
Govangirl
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Sassenachland


Re: Independence

Postby jaywalker » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:38 pm

If you had to place a bet on where it is likely to "kick off", where would you risk your wages on?
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you!
jaywalker
Quite a Regular
Quite a Regular
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 11:39 pm
Location: CORBY.. The jewel in Northamptonshires crown


Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:48 pm

I was merely commentating on a news item stating that there had been an altercation between the rival factions.Who on here regards that as some kind of slur on the populace?
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-09- ... n-glasgow/
LANDROVER ROGER
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3121
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 10:39 am


Re: Independence

Postby Shona » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Referendum stats:

1 Older voters were the most opposed to independence with 73% of over-65s voting No.
2 Independence was most popular with 16 and 17 year olds - 71% backed No.
3 One in seven who voted SNP in the last election voted No.
4 Men were more likely to vote for independence - even so, men said no to the breakaway by a six-point margin.
5 Most Yes voters (52%) only decided to back independence since the start of the year. Most No voters (72%) made up their minds longer than a year ago.
6 For No voters, the pound was the deciding issue followed by pensions.
7 Yes voters cited the NHS and disengagement with Westminster as main reasons for voting they way the did.
8 Only 27% of No voters said that a strong attachment to the UK was why they voted to stay.
9 Just 10% of Yes voters said their main motivation was getting rid of the Tories.
10 More than half of Yes voters think the independence question will be revisited within 10 years.
Shona
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:28 pm


Re: Independence

Postby lochend » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:32 pm

"last time I checked my payslip I believe I paid tax too. If the English do feel despised perhaps it's quotes like that which fuel that sentiment." Bertie,I was suggesting that the FACT that Scots currently receive £1,624 more per person from the exchequer than their English cousins might have suggested to some that they were not as poorly served as the Scots Nats were suggesting! However I have no wish to pick a fight with you.The point is that we all on these Islands are poorly served by our political masters, it is not only the Scots who have reason to complain!
User avatar
lochend
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:25 pm
Location: Wirral


Re: Independence

Postby Bertie » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:00 pm

Thanks GG, and yes, it's been a while ;)

Lochend:
The point is that we all on these Islands are poorly served by our political masters, it is not only the Scots who have reason to complain!

Totally agree. my point was that we all pay tax into a collective pot with little idea of where it goes. But, you're right, no reason to fall out about it.

Rog: I did read his quotes, many times, and although they weren't all to my taste either I still maintain he was entitled to his view and didn't merit the quotes that were made. If Shona was gracious enough to ignore the temptation to score points after the result I think we could all follow from her example.
User avatar
Bertie
Happy Camper
Happy Camper
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: Campbeltown


Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:30 am

Govangirl wrote:
LANDROVER ROGER wrote:I am watching Channel 4 news and hoping to God that it does not kick off violently in Glasgow.


Oh yes, I hope too because these Weegies are inherently such a violent lot, aren't they?


http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3547573
LANDROVER ROGER
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3121
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 10:39 am


Re: Independence

Postby Shona » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:07 pm

Bertie wrote:If Shona was gracious enough to ignore the temptation to score points after the result I think we could all follow from her example.


Please don't hold me up as an example of virtue!

One side was always going to lose and losing is always disappointing.

For the most fervent Yes supporters this is a bereavement. I'll leave them to their grief and hope in time they heal. I worry that there will be a few who are so in denial and so angry, the result will leave them bitter for years.
Shona
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:28 pm


Re: Independence

Postby Bobh » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:32 pm

I have not said too much on this topic as I am getting weary of forum arguments/debates. Our home is and has been split- and this has caused heated arguments where there is now six adults in our house (mum dad and four kids-now adults).

It has had both negative and positive vibes in our home. An awareness of politics-good. falling out -bad. The demography of our family ranges from 52-18. Our hearts and our minds have been split many times. I just wish that we, as a hardworking family can move on and make sure our beloved country can move on and prosper.
Bobh
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: GLASGOW


Re: Independence

Postby Hume » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:27 pm

Govangirl, Bertie, thank you for your kind words. I’m glad you enjoyed my input over the last six months or so on this thread, its been enjoyable from my point of view too. There have been some excellent contributions and I can certainly recognise a well-constructed argument even if I don’t agree with it.

We will of course still disagree, Govangirl, on the best way forward for Scotland but of all your and particularly Shona’s arguments for Scotland staying in the UK I found the ones around solidarity and unity the strongest and most difficult to argue against. These are things I believe in and where for example businesses merge the reasons often cited are synergies, comparative advantage and economies of scale etc. (although that is often code for job losses!). Where I think this falls down is that the UK is not a partnership of equals.

Govangirl wrote:Hume, there's always something to blame: if it's not the 'biased media' (and certainly on Tuesday night Mr Dimbleby gave a much easier ride to Salmond than he did to Brown!!) then it's the nasty lot at Westminster!!!! Please accept that if it is a No then it is the will of the majority of the people and not that it is 'not valued by some' as you put it!



I agree with that too. I said Dimbleby was very good that evening and allowed both to put their points across largely uninterrupted, which itself was refreshing. If you felt Brown got a rougher time then it was probably because there were a lot more holes in his arguments ;-).

I’ve not really kept up to speed with the aftermath of the referendum, probably partly intentional but also partly outwith my control. As others did, I probably said this was the most important thing to happen for 300 years. As it happens, following some news received in my household a couple of weeks ago, the referendum wasn’t even the most important thing to happen last Thursday, never mind the last 300 years.

I was therefore away from home from midday on Friday until last night, just in case anyone was thinking I was avoiding the Forum ;-). I recall a situation a good number of years ago when I was at Uni and was doing my Saturday job in the afternoon. Aberdeen were playing Celtic and my flatmates (Celtic) were at the game. Anyway, we got beaten 7-0 (actually it happen about three times that season but this was the first) and I was due to meet them in the pub afterwards. Clearly I didn’t want to go but it was either that or face them around midnight, which would have been worse, so I went to the Celtic pub to face the music! So here I am, facing the music.

Before leaving on Friday, I had time for quite a surreal experience. I had stayed up until about 4am but thought I needed some sleep before driving to Oban. Despite being scheduled to be off, I woke to a text at 7.40am about a client wanting to invest money on the back of the No vote. Quite a lot of money I found out in a follow up call at 8am, enough to give all us Yes voters a pound each.

Regarding the quote above Govangirl, I know you think Yes supporters go on about a biased media. I like to think I can be rational even coming from a strongly held position. In my view the BBC is the most disgraceful organisation. Comparable things that went unreported as they could have been damaging to the No campaign were top of the agenda if there were negative implications for Yes. Conversely, positive stories for Yes never received anything like the exposure those for No.

I have no objection to negative stories being reported, even if that happens to be more on the Yes side. My problem was the way in which these were reported. There were many many examples, one which stuck in my mind was when Mark Carney came to Edinburgh shortly after George Osborne had ruled out a Currency Union. Carney spoke for around 25 minutes and was highly positive about how a Currency Union can operate across territories but did state at one point how there could be risk and it would involve ceding a degree of sovereignty. Nothing alarming really but these two lines were repeated for days on the BBC and were taken completely out of context. No focus was given to the other points he made. That is simply not balanced journalism and there were multiple examples of this type of thing. Its no surprise though is it, is anyone really honestly able to say they think the BBC is unbiased?

What we saw in the last two weeks on the campaign was the full force of the British Establishment come down on Scotland to prevent us voting Yes. Government, businesses and the media colluding to make a mockery of the democratic process.

I strongly believe we would now be in negotiations about the setup of a new State called Scotland if it were not for the BBC.

As for result itself, younger people favoured Independence more than older people. Probably not surprising. Three quarters of those over 65 voted No. I wonder what impact Better Together telling people they would lose their pension in an Independent Scotland had on that age group?

Speaking generally, those living in statistically poorer areas favoured Yes, whereas those in more affluent areas favour No. This is quite telling, isn’t it. People in Glasgow (I got that bit right, Bobh), North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire have made a cry for help and to a large degree, Scotland as a whole has ignored that. These people are categorically NOT Better Together. Does this not also dismiss this nonsense about Nationalism. Huge population bases of traditional Labour territory, where the SNP cannot buy a seat, voted Yes. Please don’t tell me these people are nationalists. I nearly fell of my seat at one point listening to Michael Forsyth on STV, when he said that perhaps only half of the Yes vote was a nationalist one. It suited Better Together to use the term ad infinitum before the polls closed. Same with Danny Alexander, who said something about needing to recognise that it wasn’t just SNP voters who were voting Yes. Could have fooled us, Danny!

From what I have read, which is little, ‘The Vow’ is already falling to pieces and I fear Scotland has been badly duped. The parties providing the ‘guarantees’ are already giving out conflicting messages. What happens next in that regard will determine how quickly the issue of Independence is re-visited. It looks like the campaign for Independence has already found another gear and if additional powers are not delivered another referendum soon would be entirely justified. If the promises are delivered, the issue should be left alone for a little longer.

In summary, I am hugely disappointed as I felt this was a chance for us to create a modern democracy and leave behind a system of elitism. Staying in the UK will only ever allow us to see tweaks round the edges as the baton passes endlessly from Labour to Conservative and back again. I was hugely attracted to the idea of improving society from the bottom up, rather than the top down and hopefully we get there one day. If we don’t get there one day as an independent Scotland, I still hope we get there as the UK, although I think the chances will be greatly diminished.

In terms of those shameful scenes from George Square, those do not represent No voters any more than threats of violence received by Shona represent Yes voters. Burning Scotland flags, violence against passers by and spitting on police officers is pretty awful. Can you imagine if one of them threw an egg though - it would have been on the BBC news for a week solid...or maybe not.

I’m proud of myself for voting Yes. I am happy I will be able to tell my two kids I was one of the ones who voted for real change.

..and well done Glasgow!
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

Yes, I believe Scotland is a country and should therefore govern itself.
No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
User avatar
Hume
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:44 pm
Location: Cambuslang


PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests