Independence

[baz]

But in an independent Scotland, there will still be people who don't get the Government they vote for.
There were some 400,000 voters in Scotland who supported the Conservatives at the 2010 General Election.

The Scottish Parliament utilises mixed member proportional representation.
Which is more democratic than Westminster.
But you also neglect to mention the unelected House of Lords

.... the use of the word 'unionist' to describe anyone who is voting against independence is a dog whistle to Catholic working class Labour voters of Irish heritage.

Bigotry.
Unashamed bigotry.
That should have no place in a modern Scotland.

But there it is.
And you, Shona, perpetuate that which divides us.
Keeping us divided and conquered.

However you vote, let it be without prejudice.

[Hume]

But in an independent Scotland, there will still be people who don't get the Government they vote for.

There were some 400,000 voters in Scotland who supported the Conservatives at the 2010 General Election. Just a guess here, but they may feel they currently do have a government in Westminster which represents their views even if the majority of them don't have an MP of that party. They won't feel they have the government they voted for if the SNP or Labour form a majority in Holyrood. And...I'm going out on a limb here...Alex Salmond won't feel he has the Government he voted for if Labour are in charge in Edinburgh.

Of course there will be individuals who don't get the government they vote for. There is probably not a system in the world that would facilitate that. The closest you could come to that would be 100% PR but I'm not sure if anyone operates at completely PR system?

Notice I didn't say 'I', I said 'we', as in the people of Scotland. I will accept not necessarily getting the government I vote for so long as it is in line with the wishes of the people in Scotland.

Actually, if voters in Scotland don't like the party in power in Westminster, they can elect a different party into power in Holyrood with considerable devolved powers. No chance of that for voters in England. I have previously mentioned the paucity of Conservative representation in places like Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle. No second chance for them. But equally there was no second chance for non-Labour votes in England when Labour were in power.

They are cities though, not countries. Sorry to keep making the same point.

[lochend]

Baz.Come down from your ivory tower.What Shona wrote is not bigotry but reality, unfortunately. Are you suggesting that there are not voters out there who have never wanted to be British a have felt an allegiance to elsewhere,and that elsewhere is not even Scotland? Don't let us hide behind accusations of bigotry. Don't shoot the messenger for exposing the rather unpleasant truth!

[baz]

@lochy

Bigotry is a state of mind where a person holds stubborn and complete views regarding other groups with fear, distrust, prejudice or hatred solely on the basis of ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, disability, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other group characteristics.

To suggest the comment is not a display of bigotry, is disingenuous at best.
It certainly ticks the boxes of religion, national origin, and socioeconomic status.

And it is not the first such comment.

[Shona]

Do you realise just how offensive you are, Baz?

My husband is one of those Irish Catholic working-class voters who have long formed the bedrock of Labour support. Following a discussion last night, he acknowledged the skill of the SNP campaign in getting people we know to switch. Unionist is a despised term given the history and heritage of the Irish Catholic diaspora.

We have, what the opposing sides during the Troubles called, a 'mixed marriage' and have been the victims of sectarianism and bigotry from both communities, including death threats.

I have spent years devoted to cross-community co-operation, bringing together opposing sides. Some people say they remember what they were doing when Kennedy was shot/terrorist attacks of 11 September, I remember where I was when the Good Friday agreement was signed: Washing the dishes as I looked at Rathlin bathed in spring sunshine - the years of hatred and division were over.

Unity and bringing people together is what inspires me. Not division.

[baz]

@Shona

You should know better then.

Your personal circumstances do not excuse you.

[Shona]

...excuse me from what exactly?

Please have the good grace to either apologise for your offensive remarks or delete them.

[baz]

...excuse me from what exactly?
Please have the good grace to either apologise for your offensive remarks or delete them.

Excuse you of you bigoted comment, obviously.

It is quite remarkable, that you put your time and effort
into constructing such comments, and then have the audacity
to suggest that I have caused you some offense.

If you are offended by the challenge to your comment
and not the despicable nature of it,
then you can remain offended.
As there will be no apology forthcoming.

[purplesky]

Do you realise just how offensive you are, Baz?

My husband is one of those Irish Catholic working-class voters who have long formed the bedrock of Labour support. Following a discussion last night, he acknowledged the skill of the SNP campaign in getting people we know to switch. Unionist is a despised term given the history and heritage of the Irish Catholic diaspora.

We have, what the opposing sides during the Troubles called, a 'mixed marriage' and have been the victims of sectarianism and bigotry from both communities, including death threats.

I have spent years devoted to cross-community co-operation, bringing together opposing sides. Some people say they remember what they were doing when Kennedy was shot/terrorist attacks of 11 September, I remember where I was when the Good Friday agreement was signed: Washing the dishes as I looked at Rathlin bathed in spring sunshine - the years of hatred and division were over.

Unity and bringing people together is what inspires me. Not division.

What an excellent post Shona! Well said. Your referendum posts have been so encouraging, rational and factual. It's a shame the responses have been so vitriolic! The bringing down of the Callaghan government by the SNP is something that all Labour voters should remember tomorrow when casting their votes. Just who was responsible for giving us Thatcher- the SNP certainly did get who they voted for in 1979.

[lochend]

I am afraid Baz has shown his true colours in his more recent posts.|Pompous and arrogant are just a couple of words to describe his attitude.He is right on all issues,not the slightest doubt about any issue.Again,a strong whiff of the zealot/crank?

[Govangirl]

Shona, a wonderful post, I admire you.

Lochend, once tomorrow is over, Baz and his despicable comments will disappear for good. His job in trolling this forum will be over. Take comfort in that my friend.

[LANDROVER ROGER]

And now the Country decides.................

[LANDROVER ROGER]

Just an example of spin.How do I become Scottish please and get away from this man and his lying,scheming ilk?

[Hume]

And now the Country decides.................

..and I for one am completely torn as to how this is going to go, Roger. Some days I've changed my mind several times about what the outcome is going to be. When I see the positivity of the Yes Campaign and impromptu gatherings on the street I dare to dream, then I watch the news and cringe at the thought of such bias being beamed into houses all over Scotland.

Not long now I suppose until we find out whether Scotland has taken or passed up the chance to take full control of its own affairs, such a normal thing when its put like that but apparently not valued by some.

If we had a balanced media in Scotland we'd be looking at 70%+ Yes, I'm just hoping we sneak over the line.

[Shona]

Roger, I believe there will be a better chance of getting rid the dreadful coalition if Scotland rejects breaking up our multi-national state and works together with millions of people in the rest of the UK who share that same aspiration. The next UK election will be close and Scotland will make the difference. Solidarity shouldn't stop at Carlisle and Berwick.

With its considerable devolved powers at Holyrood, Scotland has a solution if it doesn't like the outcome of a UK election. It gets another go. As do voters in Wales and NI. Not so voters in England.

I really haven't liked the anti-England tone that has flavoured the debate. London is the third most Scottish city after Glasgow and Edinburgh, after all. Around 800,000 people born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK - mainly England. Not one of them has a vote today - including my mum, who is livid that she's been disenfranchised. Is this a democratic deficit? It certainly doesn't seem fair to my mum. I imagine there are millions of people living in England who have a parent or grandparent who is Scottish.

So here we are. The cases for and against have been thumped back and forth time and again.

It's not just the fate of Scotland that's at stake today. The future of all 64 million people in the UK rests in the hands of four-and-a-quarter million voters in Scotland. It's a monumental responsibility.

For more than 300 years in every walk of life, Scotland has enriched and enhanced our team of nations. Sadly, the language of grievance has infected politics. The answer to perceived problems is to point a finger of blame. For the Nats, it's Westminster. For UKIP, it's Europe. Everything will be fine if we break away, they say. It's a worrying trend.

I hope that, in the quiet of the polling place, people ca canny and choose wisely. It's all to easy to get carried away by the tsunami of rhetoric.