Independence

[Govangirl]

Aye Shona, I remember 1979 well: the year SNP jumped into bed with the Tories!!

But that won't be in Baz's history book!!!!!

[lochend]

GG and Shona,thank heavens,you have stopped Barry in his tracks.He actually did not know that,of course he will be desperately combing google for a pithy response but I think you have him there.Perhaps it was before he was borne?

[baz]

@Shona, Govangirl & Lochy

Surely, one of you can make your point regarding "1979"?

[Shona]

We did. The 11 SNP MPs backed Thatcher in the No Confidence vote which brought down the democratically elected Labour Government. The SNP were the party that made the difference - giving Thatcher the extra votes she needed. Or should I say...vote. Thatcher won the vote by one.

[baz]

@Shona

How does this conflict with the aims of the SNP?

The SNP is composed of Left & Right leaning members,
all sharing a common goal.
The Labour Party essentially fixed the '79 referendum, in cahoots
with the Conservatives after the McCrone Report.
Thus denying the opportunity for Devolution.

Yes ..... 51.62%
No ...... 48.38%
But no Devolution

A vote of no confidence was perfectly appropriate in the circumstances.

At the time, the Tory vote was much higher in Scotland.
The Thatcher years had yet to be endured.

The McCrone Report had been classified as 'secret' by the Labour Government
and successive UK Governments kept it secret.

"...the average income in Scotland would increase by up to 30% per head if the country
became an independent state. They also concluded that Scotland's "economic problems
would disappear", and it would become "the Kuwait of the Western world"
link

Dirty tricks and deception by Westminster.
Factual and proven.

Lessons learned, it is time to leave the Union

[LANDROVER ROGER]

As a Sassenach obviously I can not vote but reading all the additional promises for Scotland as per the "Vow"I would vote "Yes"just to be free of Cameron et al.Good luck to all you Scots!

[Shona]

Baz - how ever you dress it up, the SNP were the party that gave Thatcher those crucial extra votes to bring down the Labour Government, thus heralding the Thatcher era.

I'd hoped you would have had the good grace to acknowledge that this is a reason why some people have no truck with the SNP.

[baz]

@Shona

It is idealistic, and perhaps naive, to determine Independence
indeed politics in general, in your partisan, black & white view.

The events of '79 demonstrate the complexity and fundamental
nature of Westminster politics.
There was cross-party unity and collusion to suppress the McCrone Report.
Just as there is now with "The Vow".

It is not as simple as choosing "your team".
Or supporting your prefered "colour".

Independence will afford the people of Scotland the opportunity
to transcend Westminster, and determine its own path.
Utilising its wealth and resources, which until tomorrow, it has been denied.

Divide & conquer.
The golden rule of the oppressor.

[LANDROVER ROGER]

Cameron says that "Losing Scotland would be like losing a member of the family". Has he tried the pub?

[Shona]

While I understand the emotional appeal of independence, I get drawn the other way when I consider issues objectively.

A few more thoughts and observations as we approach the big day.

The vote tomorrow won’t deliver a Scotland free of fracking, food banks, effing Tories or whatever appears on Baz's wish list.

Not one policy is being voted upon tomorrow. The vote is about breaking up a long-standing and successful union. That is all. I'm in a trade union and benefit hugely from being part of that union. There is strength in that solidarity. Leaving my union would make me weaker and more vulnerable. That is how I view leaving our union of nations.

I keep getting told the vote is not about the SNP or Salmond. But it is, isn't it? Restoring full powers to a Scottish parliament is the core SNP belief. That is what we are voting for. Sure, there are wish lists, but they are just that. Salmond can not guarantee delivering anything.

Salmond, as I have said, is a clever - and crafty - member of the very political elite he is so keen to deride. He has milked a growing disconnect with politics. The fact that he has got some of the most left-wing parts of Glasgow to back the raison d’etre of the SNP demonstrates this - the use of the word 'unionist' to describe anyone who is voting against independence is a dog whistle to Catholic working class Labour voters of Irish heritage.

Trust is important and I don't trust Salmond. Perhaps it's because of his habit of brushing aside genuine concerns as bluff, bluster, bullying and intimidation. Then there is the ever-present insinuation that if you don't agree with him, you are a Tory sympathiser. Or is it because I remember the SNP's pivotal role in bringing down Jim Callaghan’s Labour Government. It can't be glossed over that the SNPs actions that foisted Thatcherism on us. The SNP tabled the original no confidence motion and then all 11 SNP MPs voted for Thatcher’s motion of no confidence. I mention this again because Salmond and Sturgeon use the spectre of Thatcherism as an emotional device to draw voters to their cause. I was called by a Yesser and the 'we got Thatcher' script was deployed. When I pointed out the SNPs contribution to the rise of Thatcher, the lassie told me she didn't believe me and the SNP would never ever have voted with the Tories. I digress...

I keep hearing Scotland hasn't been getting the governments it votes for. Thought I’d take a wee look.

- During the 1950s, Scottish voters voted Tory and got Tory governments.
- In 1964, the majority of Scottish voters supported Labour and Labour won.
- Ditto 1966.
- Granted, Scotland voted Labour in 1970, but got Heath.
- Two elections in 1974 – Scotland voted Labour and got Labour.
- Then we had the Thatcher years during which Scotland voted Labour and the Tories won.
- 1997, 2001 and 2005 saw Labour victories in line with how people voted in Scotland
- 2010 – no one voted for the coalition, so no one got what they wanted...except Clegg!

Scotland normally gets the Government in Westminster that it votes for.

Having evaluated a huge amount from those in favour of break up, those in favour of staying together, political parties and experts, the evidence suggests to me that Scotland's economy benefits from being part of an integrated union. When it comes to defence, security and intelligence - hugely important in my family - it's clear it's better to be in the union.

Are we better than the sum of our parts?

On balance, I think we are.

[LANDROVER ROGER]

Excellent post Shona.Spoken from the heart.(Not copy and paste).

[Hume]

Scotland normally gets the Government in Westminster that it votes for.

Lots of good factual info and personal opinion, Shona. I'll by a hypocrite though and quote just one line and argue you just undid all your good work with it. If you think we deserve to normally get the government we vote for I just cannot agree. I want us to get the government we vote for every time.

When we have had the government we've voted for on the occasions you've pointed out, the key point to remember is we only got that because England happened to vote the same way, not because we alone voted that way. Its undemocratic.

In terms of 1979, I've no challenge to what you rightly say other than, can you honestly say Thatcherism was not inevitable anyway, regardless of how it came about?

The real scandal of 1979 was the imposition of the 40% rule by Labour's George Cunningham (?). In doing so Labour denied Scotland a Parliament/Assembly it voted for by majority and I think that was an outrage.

[baz]

Two lines stood out for me.
The first being answered graciously by Hume.

Which leaves me with this one .....

.... the use of the word 'unionist' to describe anyone who is voting against independence is a dog whistle to Catholic working class Labour voters of Irish heritage.

Bigotry.
Unashamed bigotry.
That should have no place in a modern Scotland.

But there it is.
And you, Shona, perpetuate that which divides us.
Keeping us divided and conquered.

However you vote, let it be without prejudice.

[Shona]

Excellent post Shona.Spoken from the heart.(Not copy and paste).

Thank you, Roger.

[Shona]

Scotland normally gets the Government in Westminster that it votes for.

When we have had the government we've voted for on the occasions you've pointed out, the key point to remember is we only got that because England happened to vote the same way, not because we alone voted that way. Its undemocratic.

But in an independent Scotland, there will still be people who don't get the Government they vote for.

There were some 400,000 voters in Scotland who supported the Conservatives at the 2010 General Election. Just a guess here, but they may feel they currently do have a government in Westminster which represents their views even if the majority of them don't have an MP of that party. They won't feel they have the government they voted for if the SNP or Labour form a majority in Holyrood. And...I'm going out on a limb here...Alex Salmond won't feel he has the Government he voted for if Labour are in charge in Edinburgh.

Actually, if voters in Scotland don't like the party in power in Westminster, they can elect a different party into power in Holyrood with considerable devolved powers. No chance of that for voters in England. I have previously mentioned the paucity of Conservative representation in places like Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle. No second chance for them. But equally there was no second chance for non-Labour votes in England when Labour were in power.