Independence

This forum provides an opportunity for people to debate and discuss the latest current events; to talk about what's going on in the world today and discuss what's behind the news headlines.

Re: Independence

Postby Govangirl » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:46 pm

A very eloquent post Hume albeit a sad one. There are many points there to discuss but right now I need tae get ma man's tea oot. I will answer one point though:

Hume wrote:is anyone really honestly able to say they think the BBC is unbiased?



Absolutely no, I agree this is a corrupt institution and has been for many years.
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted
User avatar
Govangirl
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Sassenachland


Re: Independence

Postby four eyes » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:06 pm

Baz was last seen talking to wee jimmy crankie about a vacant first minister post,Fandabadozi! :lol:
four eyes
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:23 am
Location: deep in the heart of nowhere


Re: Independence

Postby lochend » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:47 pm

Hume ," Government, businesses and the media colluding to make a mockery of the democratic process.I strongly believe we would now be in negotiations about the setup of a new State called Scotland if it were not for the BBC.As for result itself, younger people favoured Independence more than older people. Probably not surprising. Three quarters of those over 65 voted No. I wonder what impact Better Together telling people they would lose their pension in an Independent Scotland had on that age group?"I understand your disappointment but if you think the BBC was mainly responsible for the vote not going the way you hoped I think you are clutching at straws.What about the Scottish newspapers? Could it not be that the over 65's have their feet more planted on the ground than excitable,impressionable 16-18 yeaar old kids, many question the reason why they were allowed to vote anyway.Nobody to my knowledge threatened Scottish pensioners with the loss of their state pension but it was understandable that with the many uncertainties associated with the split they were concerned.Had Alex Salmond been honest and admitted that ultimately the Euro was the most likely destination he may have fared better but the evasion on this question will have exacerbated the feeling of doubt amongst the more cautious/sensible voter.I personally am delighted that we still have a Union and hope that with the almost certain rejection of the Tories at the next election we can unite and feel more comfortable partners once more.
User avatar
lochend
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:25 pm
Location: Wirral


Re: Independence

Postby Hume » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:44 am

Lochend, on the pension thing, people were undoubtedly telling pensioners would lose their entitlement in an Independent Scotland.

I heard Douglas Alexander, live on radio, refuse to confirm to a pensioner her pension would be safe, knowing fine well it would be. Totally despicable.

Not only that but telling Polish people they would be deported from an Independent Scotland!

However, I'll soften a couple of my points slightly. You are right, its not just the BBC, the newspapers are largely supporters of the Union too, although that is a commercial decision on their part so I have less of an issue with that. The BBC is supposed to be impartial. I'm sure the newspapers did have an influence on people too and its therefore quite remarkable that 45% voted Yes when only one of I think 37 mainstream publications available in Scotland actively supported Independence and it was a Sunday Paper.

To say though, everyone who voted No did so because of the media, would be an insult to those who actively researched the arguments and decided Scotland was better off in the UK. I'm not suggesting that, only that if will have had an effect.

Take for instance the way this 'Vow' was reported, firstly in a newspaper (which is entitled to it editorial stance) but then latched on to by the BBC without even a hint of a challenge. This vow of more powers was simply a re-hash of what we heard before, only that a timetable was put in place in which to implement them. We still don't know what these powers are or if we will ever see any of them but what angers me most is the way this was engineered in the campaign as if it was something new, which is wasn't and also that the media began to describe it as 'Devo Max'.

What Better Together did was falsely tip the balance in favour of No by creating a situation where (some) people believed voting No was a vote for Devo Max. It is noting of the sort. The BBC were complicit in this and although I said earlier the interview Dimbleby did with Gordon Brown last Tuesday was fair, I'm now recalling he made several references to 'Home Rule'.

I know its hard to define Devo Max / Home Rule but if Independence results in Scotland controlling 100% of revenue and spending, then Devo Max is around about the 80/85% mark. What is being offered in the Vow is an increase in revenue collection from around 10% to maybe 40% being generous. Spending capabilities won't really budge from their current 60%.

Image

So this is the Vow, get Scotland to collect more of it own tax so Holyrood is more accountable for the money it gets to spend. This to me is code for cutting the Barnett Formula Block Grant.

For the record, I would take Devo Max for now. We know from other surveys the people of Scotland want a far greater say in the running of the country and there is no way 55% voted for the 'Status Quo' A large chunk of that would have been in the hope of Devo Max at some point in the future worse still the people who voted No in the belief that is what they were getting right away.

I hope the people of Scotland realise pretty quickly we have been deceived on a massive scale.

Now, for balance, if Devo Max was an option there is no way Yes would have achieved 45% either as a large chunk of that vote would also have been for Devo Max if it had been an option. As it happened, 1.6M people voted to leave the UK, which is a staggering amount of our electorate. At least it should put an end to the old media line that barely a third of Scots support Independence.

lochend wrote: I personally am delighted that we still have a Union and hope that with the almost certain rejection of the Tories at the next election we can unite and feel more comfortable partners once more.


Maybe I should give up trying to predict the future for a while but I'm interested to hear why you think there will be a rejection of the Tories in May 2015?

They are already polling about on par with Labour for the GE and I have a feeling that a fair bit of the UKIP support in the polls will drift back to the Tories in the FPTP system for a fear of letting Labour take the marginal seats down south.

Labour may get a boost from the Lib Dems' voters, although that might depend on how they handle the storm brewing over devolution in England and the gathering support to exclude Scottish MPs voting on English only matters. In Scotland, Labour could lose some previously solid seats following their referendum campaign, which saw a large amount of its core vote support Independence. All eight constituencies in Glasgow, which are solid Labour, voted Yes last week. If these people remain angry at Labour it could be very interesting.
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

Yes, I believe Scotland is a country and should therefore govern itself.
No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
User avatar
Hume
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:44 pm
Location: Cambuslang


Re: Independence

Postby ionnsaigh » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:10 pm

" The Democratic Process " can, and will mean a number of various things, to any person, or any group of persons.
Lets attempt to define, or would it be fairer to describe, that rules of law should encompass, and recognise the value of morality, at it's kernel. Tom Paine described the law as, only the will of the people. It appears, as history undoubtedly reveals, that surprise surprise, good law is kept - bad broken.

Anyway back to matters at hand, one person one vote, would be a stating point of principle. Good enough for the ancient Greeks, then good enough for the people of Scotland. Then again - there remains small differences of opinion as to the correct definition of democracy, different things - different people. See how it transcends - from the dizzy ( romantic ) heights of high value, to something akin to dissection - a prerequisite to thorough scientific investigation.

One person one vote certainly meets the requirements of equality, for in order that equality might be served, it recognises the morality of being fare, after all - why should One have Two - the other nothing, if we can except this fundamental value at it's core, then we can only extend this to other forms of inequality in our society.
O'Donnchadha
User avatar
ionnsaigh
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:31 am
Location: The Dear Green Place


Re: Independence

Postby tarmmaker » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:47 pm

What are you on about?
Whatever gets you thru the night. J Lennon.
tarmmaker
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:18 am


Re: Independence

Postby lochend » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:31 pm

Tarmaker,He does not require an answer,he is simply happy to look at and admire his own perceived eloquence and imagine others doing the same !! I think verbosity is a good word don't you? :lol:
User avatar
lochend
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:25 pm
Location: Wirral


Re: Independence

Postby tarmmaker » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:36 am

Thanks for that Lochend.
It's nice to know Sir Stanley Unwin still has admirers.
Whatever gets you thru the night. J Lennon.
tarmmaker
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:18 am


Re: Independence

Postby ionnsaigh » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:57 am

lochend wrote:Tarmaker,He does not require an answer,he is simply happy to look at and admire his own perceived eloquence and imagine others doing the same !! I think verbosity is a good word don't you? :lol:


:lol:
O'Donnchadha
User avatar
ionnsaigh
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:31 am
Location: The Dear Green Place


Re: Independence

Postby ionnsaigh » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:12 pm

lochend wrote:Tarmaker,He does not require an answer,he is simply happy to look at and admire his own perceived eloquence and imagine others doing the same !! I think verbosity is a good word don't you? :lol:



This is a, classic example of attempted denigration of myself, yet more importantly, the utter contempt shown, to the importance of Independence, in relation to the peoples of Scotland, this becomes abundantly clear, by it's very absence.

If we hold any values in society, then these arise, from what we perceive as being fair, and of equal measure. This must hold as being of fundamental importance, in a civilised society. In order to attempt to build a better world for future generations, we have to examine the living conditions of the people of Scotland. The differences in standards of living are blatantly obvious, here in the City, I'm not sure if it's any much different, in the countryside though ? The wealth of the nation must belong to the people of that nation, if one benefits, then we all should. We must consider the immediate seizure of all our natural resources in order to readdress the distribution of wealth and power. If that stops one person freezing, because they can't afford the bill, then it's worth it. It would be wrong of others to think that the referendum is the end of something, on the contrary, it's the beginning. :D
O'Donnchadha
User avatar
ionnsaigh
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:31 am
Location: The Dear Green Place


Re: Independence

Postby jaywalker » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:19 pm

Ah! ok then.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you!
jaywalker
Quite a Regular
Quite a Regular
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 11:39 pm
Location: CORBY.. The jewel in Northamptonshires crown


Re: Independence

Postby lochend » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:42 pm

ionnsaigh,All sounds very laudable but is the idea that one section of the UK should waltz off with all the natural resources, at the expense of the rest of us something you can square with your high minded morality? We don't all live in the south east you know.Note the 50% increase in children being diagnosed as malnourished as a suggestion that there are many parts of the UK that would be substantially worse of if Scotland tried to sneak off with the swag! You are totally right to have your opinions but please deliver them as opinions and not sermons fronm the mount,you appear just as greedy and self serving as many of those that you despise!
User avatar
lochend
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:25 pm
Location: Wirral


Re: Independence

Postby ionnsaigh » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:33 pm

lochend wrote:ionnsaigh,All sounds very laudable but is the idea that one section of the UK should waltz off with all the natural resources, at the expense of the rest of us something you can square with your high minded morality? We don't all live in the south east you know.Note the 50% increase in children being diagnosed as malnourished as a suggestion that there are many parts of the UK that would be substantially worse of if Scotland tried to sneak off with the swag! You are totally right to have your opinions but please deliver them as opinions and not sermons fronm the mount,you appear just as greedy and self serving as many of those that you despise!


Scotland has an identity, a history and growing culture. To reduce this with your term " one section of the UK " is - I feel in many ways - derogatory, perhaps epitomising our relationship with our English neighbours. As with all relationships, a sense of fairness, amongst two equal partners are the healthy ingredients. We, please feel free to ask the Irish and Welsh colonies, how their own particular people fared, or perhaps these two sections feel different from us in the northern sector. I see myself as a Scot ( whatever that may be ) not better, only distinctly different, from those who demand my assimilation. However you infer that the natural resources of Scotland ( sorry the northern sector ) are in some way lost to Scotland, because it gives up the right even to be seen as a country, to a much higher cause, that of staying within the United Kingdom.

Scotland trying to sneak off with the swag..... cuts tae the bone. The term swag usually refers to stolen loot ( unless your talking about curtains ) Apart from the crown jewels, I can't square our natural resources as swag. It only becomes swag after it's been stolen. Away for my tea...............
O'Donnchadha
User avatar
ionnsaigh
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:31 am
Location: The Dear Green Place


Re: Independence

Postby Govangirl » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:56 pm

ionnsaigh wrote:because it gives up the right even to be seen as a country, to a much higher cause, that of staying within the United Kingdom.


And to remind you, that's what the majority VOTED for in the referendum after all.
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted
User avatar
Govangirl
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Sassenachland


Re: Independence

Postby ionnsaigh » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:22 pm

Govangirl wrote:
ionnsaigh wrote:because it gives up the right even to be seen as a country, to a much higher cause, that of staying within the United Kingdom.


And to remind you, that's what the majority VOTED for in the referendum after all.


So by voting No, we give away our past. Whereas the history of the UK, is relatively young, when juxtaposed with the history of the Celts. We give up far more, apart from the few who grew rich on the backs of slaves and workers. Those members of the Scottish Aristocracy and elite city merchants, you see my nationalism stops firmly with the class struggle.
Yet we hear time and time again, that old tired cry of the middle class ( socialists ) as to the evils of Nationalism. It's very much a double edged sword, I pick it up with great care. Off to see Scotland hump England........ 8)
O'Donnchadha
User avatar
ionnsaigh
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:31 am
Location: The Dear Green Place


PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests