Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

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Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby Hume » Fri May 06, 2011 1:03 pm

Three seats to declare and SNP currently on 62 - three short of a majority. Would be nice to see the good people of Argyll & Bute put the icing on the cake!!
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby Hume » Fri May 06, 2011 1:06 pm

Oh well, no. 63 it is then.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby EMDEE » Fri May 06, 2011 1:44 pm

Well they've got 65 now anyway.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby maxmix » Fri May 06, 2011 5:42 pm

Great result altogether for the SNP.... So glad to see so many fools going all over Scotland now....

Been waiting for this for a long time :mrgreen:

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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby four eyes » Mon May 09, 2011 1:40 pm

anybody care to give some reasons why independence would be a good thing to Scotland. By independence I mean total independence.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby Isa » Mon May 09, 2011 2:02 pm

four eyes wrote:anybody care to give some reasons why independence would be a good thing to Scotland. By independence I mean total independence.


We had independence before and it was taken from us without a referendum and we haven't forgotton so it must be important.

Michael Forsyth is desperate to hold one now without the Scottish people having the chance to make up their own minds when all the pros and cons are discussed. I would like to hear both arguments without the smoke and mirrors that the Tories will use. It will take a while to sort out what it would mean to us all.

Serious question. Do you think the English would hold on to the name Britain if Scotland were to go it alone?
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby EMDEE » Mon May 09, 2011 2:36 pm

four eyes wrote:anybody care to give some reasons why independence would be a good thing to Scotland. By independence I mean total independence.


In the interests of balance, it would also be helpful to hear some reasons why it would not be a good thing.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby four eyes » Mon May 09, 2011 2:39 pm

well these are big questions and I for one can't think of any good answer to going it alone from England, remember most call centres are in India these days, not many shipyards left and any English tourists who cross the border take their life in their hands in quite a few places. I'm not sure how the salmon intends to fund things and please don't mention the oil as the legal wrangling could go on forever.

Quite frankly I'm not bothered what they call the place I just wish we could find someone who could run the country properly. What are your thoughts on the matter
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby Hume » Tue May 10, 2011 8:44 am

Isa wrote:Michael Forsyth is desperate to hold one now without the Scottish people having the chance to make up their own minds when all the pros and cons are discussed.


Stomach churning isn't it. These people deny Scotland the right to decide its own future for years then the minute a pro-independence party has a majority they want one yesterday.

I hate to think what lies and scaremongering will be turned out between now and the referendum.


Isa wrote:
I would like to hear both arguments


Exactly Isa, people deserve to know what independence for Scotland will mean for them and how it will affect their lives. Its up to both camps to convince the people that their vision is the way forward. I feel there are many people who are undecided or have not thought about it in great detail and it is important for everyone to make an informed choice.

four eyes wrote:anybody care to give some reasons why independence would be a good thing to Scotland. By independence I mean total independence.


I’m not sure whether you mean independence from the EU too when you say ‘total independence’ or simply independence from the rest of the UK. In terms of the EU, that’s another argument for another day and one which I’m not really up on.
There are many reasons why independence would be good for Scotland and there are people way better qualified than me to discuss. However, I am 100% convinced already and have been for a long time that we should have the right to self determination.

The UK in my eyes is an unfair political and economic union. At present the Welsh Assembly has put in place a Labour led administration, we have a majority SNP Government and as we know at Westminster there is a Tory Government (sorry Tory / LD coalition).

I’ll take some convincing that the Tories have any right to make decisions on Scotland’s future, when at best 1 in 6 of the population voted for them at the last UK GE. It is clear to me that the parts that make up UK are very diverse and the union is incapable of representing the political aspirations of everyone. I know that point could be made about independent states too, but at least in an independent state, the people of that state are responsible for the government they elect. At present, Scotland gets whatever government England votes for.

Independence would be good for us as I think we would remove a massive chip from our shoulder. Intentionally or not I think some people in this country see themselves as inferior, when there is no logical justification for that. For me, Scotland is the opposite, forward thinking, innovative and socially conscious. Our national psyche would receive a boost and I think there would be a celebration of everything that is good about Scottishness, whether you are Scottish or just happen to live here.

I don’t mean that in a cringy shortbread and tartan type of way – I mean we would gain a better sense of national pride and identity.

Of course the economic argument will be vital in convincing the electorate of to vote for Independence. I fail to see how we are ‘stronger as part of the union’ when that union has the second largest budget deficit and the largest level of indebtedness (GDP per head) in Europe. (admittedly that understanding might be a little out of date now following events in Greece and Portugal). Scotland has a budget SURPLUS, something only one other country in Europe has, yet we are going to be facing massive public spending cuts. That annoys me.

I don’t see what is wrong in wanting to see Scotland retain its own revenues and be responsible for devising a tax system that it feels will most appeal to the people who actually live and work here, instead of something that appeals to people south east of the M25.

Making these types of big decisions, including whether our armed forces participate in combat, I believe is the fundamental right of every nation and I want Scotland to have that.

Maybe that is what it boils down to – do people believe Scotland is a country? If so then why do we continue to take orders from a government voted for by another country? I want us to stand up, be brave and take responsibility for our own affairs.

In 1979 a majority of people who voted, voted for devolution (but it was quashed by the UK Govt)
Following the 1997 UK GE devolution was achieved and in 2007 Scotland elected its first pro-independence (minority) government.

In 2011 that government gained a majority.

That’s some nice progress in my 32 years but we need to take the ultimate step to take this country forward. Self determination is a right.

Think on the countries who have achieved it, even relatively recently. The Baltic states, loads more ex Soviet states, former Yugoslav countries, Czech Republic / Slovakia. Have any of these countries voted to go back in to union? We should have that same opportunity. We are no different.

I’ve deliberately not just listed a number of bullet points as it is the points I have made above that I do not think can be attacked by unionist. As EMDEE has said though, we should hear some POSITIVE reasons why Scotland should remain part of the UK.

Watching Newsnight Scotland last night, the big question was about the apparent death of unionism in Scotland and following the resignation of the leaders of the three main parties opposed to independence following the election result it is difficult to see how the unionist parties will be able to put forward a positive campaign for remaining in the union. I’m sure there will be plenty of mud slinging and opposition to the positive points put forward for going it alone but as the recent election proved, negative campaigns do not work. The electorate want to hear why you should vote for something, not why you should vote against it.
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

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No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby four eyes » Tue May 10, 2011 5:20 pm

a good post my friend with some valid points, but I for one am not convinced we could go it alone, what do we use to pay the bills? Can someone explain to me where the money is coming from to run this country? As for the English it's almost a dead cert that they would be glad to see the back of us, if we gave them a referendum on it we be on our own tomorrow. We need income from tax to run the country and I don't see any industry or any other revenue stream that is going to pay the bills for us
how do we pay for the health system? How do we pay for our own army, our own police force etc etc?do we go to war with the English over the oil? Split the revenues from it down the middle? The last I heard 11 billion of English money goes to Edinburgh every year. Perhaps somebody can come up with some verifiable figures for us but at the moment I think we should be careful what we wish for.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby Hume » Wed May 11, 2011 9:43 am

four eyes wrote: I for one am not convinced we could go it alone,

That is a perfectly reasonably stance, being not convinced leaves an opportunity for independence supporters to make their case and is exactly why this debate needs to become mainstream.

four eyes wrote:
what do we use to pay the bills? Can someone explain to me where the money is coming from to run this country?


As i touched on in my earlier post, Scotland is in surplus. In simple terms, that means we generate more revenue than we spend. You asked for some evidence and I would refer you to the Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) section of the Scottish Government website. That is an important point considering we are going to feel the impact of the Westminster govt cuts in the coming years as the UK tries to cut the deficit (not the debt, just the deficit).

Going off at a tangent here, but I think a lot of people think the tories are reducing the amount that the UK owes. They are not, they are simply slowing down the extent to which the UK becomes more indebted.

How would you feel if you had to give all your income to your next door neighbour, who would then give you a percentage back meaning you had less to spend on your lifestyle, knowing full well that if you were allowed to retain it in the first place you could afford everything you needed plus put a bit away for the future?

I also mentioned only one (independent) country in Europe has a budget surplus. Here is a wee graphic from December 2009 from The Economist / Reuters

Image

Look to the right for the UK. Scotland would be far left of this graph.


four eyes wrote:

As for the English it's almost a dead cert that they would be glad to see the back of us, if we gave them a referendum on it we be on our own tomorrow.



My turn to ask for some evidence, what are you basing that on?

four eyes wrote:We need income from tax to run the country and I don't see any industry or any other revenue stream that is going to pay the bills for us
how do we pay for the health system? How do we pay for our own army, our own police force etc etc?


I suppose I've covered that already - we are already self sufficient and there is a net flow of Scottish tax revenue to Westminster.

four eyes wrote:
do we go to war with the English over the oil? Split the revenues from it down the middle?



I admit, I'm not well up on the legal aspects of independence but I think I'm right in saying 83% of North Sea Oil Fields are in Scottish Waters.

four eyes wrote:

The last I heard 11 billion of English money goes to Edinburgh every year.


Firstly, no English money goes to Edinburgh, UK money does. Are you suggesting we benefit to the tune of 11bn a year? I'm sorry but I think that is just plain wrong.

The positive message for independence needs to get out. This is where the independence movement can steal a march on the unionist campaign, which will focus on fear.

I am encouraged that so many people appear to have voted based on the campaigns / manifestos last week rather than out of habit or old family loyalties. I can only hope this continues until the referendum and Scotland votes for a better future.
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

Yes, I believe Scotland is a country and should therefore govern itself.
No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby Hume » Wed May 11, 2011 12:46 pm

four eyes wrote: The last I heard 11 billion of English money goes to Edinburgh every year.


There are a lot of opinions on this and naturally I am going to post one which fits my agenda but I've picked this article cos this guy was one of my economics lecturers at Strathclyde Uni.


Hughes Hallett added:
“At the moment, on the current account, there’s a subsidy going to London, which is helping London.

“When you get down to it, on the current account for the last five years at least, maybe longer, Scotland has had a current account surplus, which is currently according to the national accounts in Scotland £1.3 billion.”

Asked whether Scotland would definitely be better off, Prof Hallett replied: “You can definitely say that it [Scotland] would be better off in terms of the revenue.”

Full article: http://www.newsnetscotland.com/economy/861-world-renowned-economist-says-scotland-subsidising-rest-of-uk.html
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

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No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby four eyes » Wed May 11, 2011 2:13 pm

Good post but the website seems a tad one sided im still not convinced,too many nagging doubts
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Re: Argyll & Bute to give SNP majority?

Postby Hume » Thu May 12, 2011 9:39 am

I'll put you down as a maybe four eyes! :lol:
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

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No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
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