whoa there,thats not right,surely.

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whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby four eyes » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:58 pm

Liverpool Care Pathway: Minister will listen to concerns
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It is "completely wrong" for terminally ill patients to be put on a "pathway" to death without relatives being consulted, a health minister has said.

Norman Lamb has called a meeting of doctors and patients to discuss worries about the Liverpool Care Pathway - which can see water and food withdrawn.

A Conservative peer has called for an inquiry amid claims some people treated in this way could have survived.

Mr Lamb also defended the practice of paying hospitals for using the pathway.

He was reacting to reports in the Daily Telegraph that two third of NHS Trusts in England using the Liverpool Care Pathway regime have been paid sums totalling millions of pounds for reaching targets related to their use.

Relieving suffering
Responses to a Freedom of Information request by the paper have suggested that at least £12.4m has been paid out to trusts in the past three years.

The pathway was developed at the Royal Liverpool University Hospital and the city's Marie Curie hospice to relieve suffering in dying patients, setting out principles for their treatment in their final days and hours.

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Payments have been made to encourage and ensure that patients and their loved ones are involved in the critical discussions that take place at the end of life”

Norman Lamb
Health minister
Mr Lamb said any payments made in connection with the pathway happened at a local level, without the government's involvement.

"Payments should only be made to encourage better care for people at the end of life," he told BBC Radio 4's World at One.

"Payments have been made to encourage and ensure that patients and their loved ones are involved in the critical discussions that take place at the end of life. If that is the result of the system, then that seems to me to be a good outcome."

The Lib Dem minister, responsible for social care, said his "sole interest" was making the final days of someone's life as comfortable and dignified as possible whether they chose to be in hospital, a hospice or at home.

"This (the pathway) is an approach improving the experience at the end of life. This is an approach supported by Macmillan and Marie Curie. Would those organisations really advocate a programme that denied dignity to people at the end of life."

'Right to complain'
Mr Lamb said he wanted to hear about cases where patients or their families had not been properly involved in, or informed about, how they were being treated and had convened a "roundtable" of clinicians and patients groups later this month to discuss the issue.

"Families are right to complain when that happens and it is that sort of approach which has to be challenged," he added. "I am absolutely determined myself to ensure we do challenge that."

"I want to hear where things have gone wrong. I want to ensure we address that absolutely, but a lot of good things have happened in recent years to improve the experience at the end of life."

Conservative peer Baroness Knight, who is calling for an inquiry into suggestions the Liverpool Care Pathway had accelerated some people's deaths, said she had heard of cases where people were deprived of water without their consent.

"One man actually rang the police and asked 'let me get some water'," she told BBC Breakfast. "That cannot be right. To die needing water is not a pleasant experience."

"What I think has happened is that a good idea at the beginning has translated into some very heartbroken people who have seen their relative die when actually they could have saved them."

But Dr David Nicholl, a consultant neurologist, told the BBC he was not aware of any financial targets connected to the pathway and that he believed hospitals were only concerned with getting more resources for good quality palliative care

"It is quite explicit that patients, where possible, should be fully consulted and their families consulted.

"Where there have been problems, I would say it has not been with the pathway but due to a lack of communication."

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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby MPR » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:56 pm

each and every human should have the right to refuse food and water at the end of life or to have food and water if they so choose, there should also be a written declaration by that human as to who should be able to make those descisions for them should they not be able to. I know 1st hand the futility of trying everything to keep living, but at some point we all die, we should be able to die in comfort if that is our choice, this liverpool plan is meted out by the medics( who for the most part see the terminally ill and the elderly as taking up their valuable time) without consult from family,its a disgrace and should be completely thrown out.
You can bet the house that finances are really at the heart of this.
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby four eyes » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:45 pm

not sure about finance,but it needs carefull watching by family members,mind you some folk are alone.
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby odds » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:14 am

All care homes need watching in todays profit before customer care climate !!
The standard of care for elderly in this country is an absolute disgrace since it was all privitised, I know form first hand knowledge.
Staff in these homes are quite often people that don't give a toss and only do it as they are forced to by Job Centres, paid minimum wage, have no training beforehand yet are let loose on vulnerable and sometimes violent people.
What is the point of having inspections of these homes when they are told beforehand when an inspector will be calling, of course everything will be tip top and fully staffed.
The Care Quality Commision is yet another toothless Government Department driven by targets of how many homes they visit regardless of the findings and a total waste of money.
Need an example of how these so called inspections are such a sham ?

Here is a description of a care home in a report:

Overview of the service:
Kingsfield Care Centre is a purpose built
residential care home and offers
accommodation for up to 54 older
people in single rooms.The home is
near to the town centre of Ashton-u-
Lyne, and there is good access to public
transport facilities.
Kingsfield Care Centre is run by
Meridian Healthcare Limited
.
[/color]

Check the report from August this year.
http://www.cqc.org.uk/directory/1-123208450

Now here is what Meridian offer at this Home:

Types of care
Residential care
Dementia care
Respite care
Specialist dementia


http://www.meridiancare.co.uk/kingsfield

Now, if you had read the report previously, there is absolutely no mention of these other services offered at this 'Residential Home', no mention of the EMI Unit they have for the more violent residents, and the reason that they spoke to 'three' residents is because the rest of them are suffering from dementia and don't have a clue what day it is, but hey, why mention that eh !!. Maybe the inspector just wasn't qualified to assess the requirements of such serious cases of Dementia ?
The reason I know this report is all Bullsh*t ? , because till last year my missus worked there. The difference between her and the 'carers' she worked with was she knew all the residents name, she could tell you what each one would want for breakfast, dinner, and tea, she knew what medicines they all needed, though she never adminstered it. I know for a fact that a manager was doping one patient to keep them sleepy all day by giving double doses of meds, this was reported by my missus(who knows what they all need) and was covered up.
I won't carry on my mini rant, but just think on, and hope you never end up in a home like these ....... and this one got a good report. I doubt there will be many get bad ones though.
I wonder who are on the board of Directors of these homes, obviously indirectly :)

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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby Martin » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:14 am

....
Last edited by Martin on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ouch !
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby MPR » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:28 pm

Odds and Martin I quite agree with both of you,While there are some genuine caring people in the health care "industry" the majority are lazy ba$%a*#s who dont give a tinkers damn about another human being, society in general has become intolerant of anyhing that interferes with their personal life. My parents raised me to treat others as I would be treated.
A disgrace what happened to dorothy, a disgrace that happens all to often today.
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby odds » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:50 am

Martin wrote:Your mrs must be a wee gem then, a rarity in those places.


Although I don't wish to blow her own trumpet I have nothing but respect for her in the way she looked after residents at the home she worked at. Not only did she know the residents, she also knew all the visitors that came to see them, and when they would be coming.
She would often go back to work to check on terminally residents in her own time just to make sure the 'numpties' taking over were taking care of them correctly, which is more than the managers would do.
Simple things like making sure all the men were shaved, she would go into work after 2 days off and none had been shaved, and that is basic care .... and my missus is one to speak her mind and made it clear that it was not acceptable. Did the managers take note ? No

Sorry about going on about this topic but it really does piss me off how elderly people are treated in homes since it has all been privatised, and let's not forget that unless you make a profit there is no point running a business. Pay peanuts you get monkeys ........... not caring people who actually care about the people they are looking after !!!

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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby four eyes » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:57 pm

please note that this thread was about the Liverpool care pathway. This is something completely different from the treatment you get in a nursing home.
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby four eyes » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:02 pm

MPR wrote:each and every human should have the right to refuse food and water at the end of life or to have food and water if they so choose, there should also be a written declaration by that human as to who should be able to make those descisions for them should they not be able to. I know 1st hand the futility of trying everything to keep living, but at some point we all die, we should be able to die in comfort if that is our choice, this liverpool plan is meted out by the medics( who for the most part see the terminally ill and the elderly as taking up their valuable time) without consult from family,its a disgrace and should be completely thrown out.
You can bet the house that finances are really at the heart of this.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you when you state that most medics see the terminally ill as taking up their valuable time.having lost a number of relatives in the last few years, I never once came across one, who appeared in any way whatsoever in this way.they were professional, courteous and went out of their way to assist my family. If you have had an experience that was in some way unsatisfactory, I'm extremely sorry, but they went beyond the call of duty as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby MPR » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:56 pm

having lost a number of relatives in the last few years, I never once came across one, who appeared in any way whatsoever in this way.they were professional, courteous and went out of their way to assist my family. If you have had an experience that was in some way unsatisfactory, I'm extremely sorry, but they went beyond the call of duty as far as I'm concerned.


They are usually always nice to your face, but behind closed doors the comments are disgustng.
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby four eyes » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:59 pm

I don't wish to get into an argument with you, I was merely stating my experience
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby MPR » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:35 pm

me either 4 eyes. sorry if I sounded argumentative didnt mean to be.
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Re: whoa there,thats not right,surely.

Postby four eyes » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:11 am

MPR wrote:me either 4 eyes. sorry if I sounded argumentative didnt mean to be.

No problem,thanks for your courtesy.
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