Champions League

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Champions League

Postby Jock Strap » Wed May 06, 2009 3:23 pm

So Man Utd are there again. Real pity about Darren Fletcher. In fact unbelievable that the decision can't be reversed as it is a clear mistake. Makes me wonder if anything different would have happened if it was Ronaldo or Rooney? Certainly would be more coverage on the incident anyway. For anyone who doubts Fletchers class you only need to look at the role he played in the semis - he was immense.

So will it be Chelsea or Barcelona? I'll go for Barcelona.
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Re: Champions League

Postby campbeltownx » Wed May 06, 2009 8:22 pm

I'll go for Chelsea. Also article 24 - 04 on uefa website doesn't mention a straight red card. It mentions a caution and 2 cautions but not a straight red so it would be interesting to see which law applies!! Shame for Darren Fletcher.
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Re: Champions League

Postby hugh » Wed May 06, 2009 9:12 pm

Drogba feels cheated? Now that's karma. :lol:
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Re: Champions League

Postby Sheik Yir Erse » Wed May 06, 2009 10:39 pm

Would agree with you Jock Strap - I thought Fletcher put in an incredible shift last night, and the tackle was just a prime example of the night he was having - tracking back into the box and making a sensational challenge. I heard today there's only one Man Utd player who has a better pass completion figures than Fletcher this year, and that man is Paul Scholes :shock:

One thing I did have to laugh about during the Man Utd game was ......... did anyone actually hear the commentator mentioning [I'm paraphrasing here] "Alex Ferguson has never been known for being a tactical genius, he is really just a good organiser and motivator" :shock: :shock: :shock:

I nearly choked on my prawn sandwich at that point. I mean, can you actually believe that ITV pay Clive Tyldsley top dollar to come up with pash like that. I'm amazed he didn't just say he'd been lucky all his career! Beggars belief.
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Re: Champions League

Postby TYM » Thu May 07, 2009 8:24 am

I was lucky enough to be at The Emirates on Tuesday and had an almost identical view of the penalty incident to the linesman, albeit from the other side of the pitch. At the time I thought it was a penalty although I felt that Fletcher had made a genuine attempt to play the ball and was therefore unlucky.

I do not blame the referee for the decision but having no right of appeal is just ridiculous.
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Re: Champions League

Postby 4th gen Suthen' » Thu May 07, 2009 11:10 am

I agree with much of what you all say about the Fletcher incident.
BUT, he did not play the ball very far away from the Fabregas.
If Fletcher's momentum had not brought him down he could well have still been able to collect the ball and shoot. Just because he played the ball a split second before the man does not, neccessarily mean it was not a penalty.

Yes, Fletcher really showed his class in that game, and all through the Champion's League run. Unlike these Chelsea players last night...Ballack is lucky he did not get himself banned for life...and for Drogba to behave like that was a disgrace. Both should still be punished. Just imagine what the under 16s down in London or Kinloch Park will be like when the next refereeing decision goes against them.

About the Chelsea penalty claims.......handball is the only offence that has to be deliberate. That is the law. The hand ball HAS to be deliberate....remember Hugh Dallas in the 02 World Cup? was it a South Korea defender handled on the line against the USA? plain as could be , no doubt. But Dallas played on because it was not deliberate and it was regarded as the right decision.
I know that is not the way it is interpreted, for the most part, nowadays.

I am pleased it is a Manchester Utd V Barcelona final. Scholes can come in for Fletcher and make up for missing out 10 years ago.
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Re: Champions League

Postby bill » Thu May 07, 2009 12:20 pm

4th gen Suthen' wrote:

I am pleased it is a Manchester Utd V Barcelona final. Scholes can come in for Fletcher and make up for missing out 10 years ago.


Agree with you there John,it is after all the European Champions League .Though ofcourse the English ?teams are mostly made up of players from overseas.

Which of course leads onto a "down memory lane"moment of,I remember when a Scottish side won the European Cup with a team consisting of all Scots. 8) :D :roll:
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Re: Champions League

Postby Ship called Dignity » Thu May 07, 2009 8:20 pm

I love yarns about football. 8)

4th gen Suthen' wrote: BUT, he did not play the ball very far away from the Fabregas.


Don't get you 4th Gen - does it matter if he played 2 cm or 20m? He till played it.

4th gen Suthen' wrote: If Fletcher's momentum had not brought him down he could well have still been able to collect the ball and shoot.
It's called a tackle. 8)

4th gen Suthen' wrote:Just because he played the ball a split second before the man does not, neccessarily mean it was not a penalty.
Yes it does. He played the ball before the man so how can that be a foul? Unless they changed the rules? Was a superb tackle but can see why the ref gave a penalty.


4th gen Suthen' wrote:About the Chelsea penalty claims.......handball is the only offence that has to be deliberate. That is the law. The hand ball HAS to be deliberate
I actually didn't know that was the rule. I thought you got booked or sent off if it is deliberate. I am sure either were not actually deliberate last night but if you go charging down balls with your arms in the air in my mind that is a penalty.
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Re: Champions League

Postby 4th gen Suthen' » Thu May 07, 2009 9:05 pm

OK, imagine Ronaldo was about to race clear from the half way line with John Terry having just one chance to slide in and clear the ball to safety...with the very tip of his toe.

And he does that...but only succeeds in knocking the ball back towards the goal and a wee bit to the right, 2cm! actually improving the line of Ronaldo's run in on goal.
In that split second Ronaldo is sure he will be through one on one with the keeper..........but the momentum of Terry's sliding tackle carries him right under the Portugeese wiping him out........ and the goalie comes out and collects the ball.

In that scenario Terry played the ball before scything Ronaldo down. Is that not a foul?

The fact that a defender gets a touch on the ball first does not neccessarily mean it is not a foul.

If he had sweeped the ball out for a throw in it would be different...... 2cm or 20m does make a difference.

Although, I seem to be in a huge minority with that view!
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Re: Champions League

Postby hugh » Thu May 07, 2009 9:36 pm

I agree with you, 4th Gen. He just didn't get enough on the ball. And I know it's a contact sport and there's momentum and all that, but the boy looked to me to have his legs taken from beneath him when it was still a playable ball.

Just a pity it happened to an honest player making an honest challenge. These days if you're going to challenge from behind, you're going to have to get a lot better contact on the ball. Think the penalty would have been punishment enough, But the ref's got no choice if it's a "clear goal-scoring opportunity"? If they'd had the ref from the other semi...
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Re: Champions League

Postby Ship called Dignity » Thu May 07, 2009 10:59 pm

Sorry I disagree with both of you. As part of making his tackle HIS momentum carried him into Fabregas which is NOT a foul. He also knocked the ball further away than you think.

Christ we'll be penalising keepers next for catching the ball and bumping into players! :wink:

PS - 4th gen - your scenario given above clearly paints the picture of touching the ball then scything the player down to make sure he doesn't go any further. I think you'll see this is a last gasp clear tackle that won the ball.

See http://www.thesportreview.com/tsr/2009/ ... ard-harsh/

Anyway, he doesn't deserve to miss the final for that.

http://www.petitiononline.com/qwerty09/petition.html
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Re: Champions League

Postby 4th gen Suthen' » Fri May 08, 2009 4:38 am

Ship called Dignity wrote:Sorry I disagree with both of you. As part of making his tackle HIS momentum carried him into Fabregas which is NOT a foul. He also knocked the ball further away than you think.

Christ we'll be penalising keepers next for catching the ball and bumping into players! :wink:

PS - 4th gen - your scenario given above clearly paints the picture of touching the ball then scything the player down to make sure he doesn't go any further. I think you'll see this is a last gasp clear tackle that won the ball.

See http://www.thesportreview.com/tsr/2009/ ... ard-harsh/

Anyway, he doesn't deserve to miss the final for that.

http://www.petitiononline.com/qwerty09/petition.html


I like Fletcher, I think it is very harsh that he will miss the final.

Maybe that particular incident is not the best example of the point I was trying to make but these days when fouls are given for SOO little, and yellow cards dished out for next to nothing,the fact that a player gets the smallest touch on the ball knowing that his follow through is bound to bring the other player to the ground should not insure him against punishment..ie free kick or penalty.

But, it seems it is just me and Hugh on that one!

I do think the disiplinary system needs to be looked at and adjusted. The fact that it is SOO draconian now is making life very difficult for smaller clubs meaning they need to have 4 or 5 more players in a first team squad, players clubs clearly cant afford to pay.
It also makes it harder to compete with the Old Firm for the "wee diddy" Scottish teams.

Imagine Celtic V Motherwell, both club's best 11 and although Celtic would be strong faves M/well could give them a right good game....BUT, take out 3 first picks from each side and Celtic would bring in 3 of very near the same quality...Motherwell's next 3 would drop greatly giving Celtic an even greater advantage.

Right, I've said enough....naebdy agrees wae me!
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Re: Champions League

Postby hugh » Fri May 08, 2009 10:13 am

Looking at it again and I still think it's a penalty, but obviously that's arguable. What gets me is this; if the ref gives the penalty, is he absolutely bound and obliged to show the red card? Last man, goal scoring opportunity and all that?

I thought that rule was designed to punish the cynical "professional foul"? Fletcher's challenge was quite clearly an honest attempt to play the ball. Surely the ref's got to have room to make a judgement on that? If he hasn't, he should. A penalty's punishment enough.

P.S. I know alot of people'll say he did "play the ball", but I'm just not convinced that 'cos the heel of his boot brushed against the ball in passing that means he played it. You tackle from behind in the penalty area, you better make sure you get it 100%.

P.P.S. It's been some week for penalties, not just in the Champion's league. That Hibs one. Now that was controversial. :shock:
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Re: Champions League

Postby paulmcw » Fri May 08, 2009 1:39 pm

time for sin bins i think. What do you think, like in Rugby?

Imagine if that challenge from fletch had been in hte 1st 5min?? The whole tie might have been different. but the fact that uefa will not even use video evidence to clear the man is shockng. He has been punished twice for a great saving tackle.

and if momentum a foul,, then defenders would do nothing but give away penalties!
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Re: Champions League

Postby joe_ruesgen » Fri May 08, 2009 6:46 pm

So surely Abidal has to have his red card reviewed too as his "last man" tackle was harsh, Anelka tripped over his own leg. If Fletcher has his case reviewed, and not also Abidal, then I think it will be another case of blatant Premiership bias once again. I really don't think Fletcher has a case though, going back and reviewing the incident will open a whole new can of worms for UEFA and I'm sure they don't need that.
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